<whitequark> TD-Linux: there's CRG()
<whitequark> it's not automatic because you might not need it and it takes a reset line.
<TD-Linux> yeah but that doesn't include the 36 cycle wait
<whitequark> sure?
<whitequark> i don't understand what do you want
<TD-Linux> I mean, if you're targeting ice40 wouldn't it make sense to automatically always generate a delayed reset line to work around the bram bug? given that yosys infers brams I don't think there would be many cases you wouldn't want the delay
<whitequark> how many cycles of delay using what clock?
<TD-Linux> I was just thinking using default_clk (and its period to figure out how many cycles)
<whitequark> mmhm
<whitequark> still, it adds a reset to your design
<whitequark> i'm not sure
<TD-Linux> yeah and I guess it's not 100% foolproof, especially if you have multiple clocks that start at different times.
<whitequark> yep
<whitequark> i might add a warning in nmigen...
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<SolraBizna> hey, I suddenly exist again, with *questions*
<SolraBizna> (gasp)
<SolraBizna> say I'm making a CPU out of an iCE40 LP8k, and say I'm using the PLL (with an external oscillator) to generate an IO clock, and say the IO device requires a differential clock signal
<SolraBizna> ...can I do that?
<whitequark> if you use the bank 3, i think?
<whitequark> either that or use DDR in regular registered IOs
<whitequark> but that will give you a different phase
<SolraBizna> well, I can
<SolraBizna> so :D
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<mithro> Anyone have recommendation for a desktop soldering station I should get? It will probably only get very light usage....
<cr1901_modern> Weller wes51 is what I've used for the past 4 years to great effect
<whitequark> mithro: depends on what kind of things you need to do
<whitequark> but in general I would go for a T12 cartridge iron and the cheapest controller you're comfortable with. the chinese ones get *really* cheap these days; i have one for $20
<mithro> whitequark: Soldering ICs every now and then, tinning wires, etc -- things like little pmods and stuff...
<whitequark> mithro: I mean how miniature
<mithro> 0402 space...
<whitequark> like i routinely have to solder to 0.3 mm pitch TQFPs and stuff
<whitequark> ah
<whitequark> go for a T12 iron imo
<whitequark> T12 : regular iron :: python scripts : bash scripts
<azonenberg> whitequark: what about a metcal or similar?
<azonenberg> how does that fit your analogy
<mithro> I find bash scripts always seem to evolve from "I just need to run a couple of commands" to "OMG how did I get into this mess" while you are not looking...
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> mithro: see, i made a point of not learning bash beyond the && and || combination operators
<azonenberg> if you need anything more than "run these commands in order and abort if something goes wrong"
<azonenberg> IMO it shouldnt' be written in bash
<whitequark> azonenberg: metcals are rf, right?
<mithro> azonenberg: no matter how much I try and do that - I still seem to end up with giant messes. I'm pretty sure if you just did a "touch a.sh" and came back a couple of months later it would be a 1000 line monstrosity....
<cr1901_modern> mithro: In the case of hdmi2usb you could probably replace all the bash stuff w/ shutil without loss of generality :D
<mithro> cr1901_modern: problem is finding the time...
* cr1901_modern nods
<azonenberg> whitequark: yes, i have a hakko that works on the same principle
<whitequark> azonenberg: those are haskell then
<azonenberg> i've done 0201 up to giant sma
<whitequark> immensely powerful but you're constrained by purity (of design that's not adjustable temp) :P
<whitequark> they are great but not so afforable
<azonenberg> yeah i use it for work so i have both budget and an excuse
<whitequark> maybe in 5 years the chinese vendors of t12 will pick up that design, too, and it will be dirt cheap
<whitequark> i mean
<whitequark> i have a t12 hakko
<whitequark> i could have got a metcal but i kinda like adjustable temp
<whitequark> but i can't really recommend metcals to anyone
<whitequark> people who can afford them, already know they can get those
<azonenberg> i find adjusting temp is a crutch for poor heat transfer or poor tip temp control
<azonenberg> unless you work with lots of alloys one temp is fine
<whitequark> i work with extremely old pcbs that delaminate at lead free temps
<whitequark> for example
<azonenberg> yeah niche case
<whitequark> i probably use temp control more as a crutch for poor heat transfer
<azonenberg> but then i'd get a metcal and low temp tip :p
<whitequark> i am not made of cash
<whitequark> although, tips shouldn't be so bad, should they?
<whitequark> i haven't realized you can effectively adjust the metcal by swapping cartridges too.
<azonenberg> tips are 30-40 usd i think?
<whitequark> that's actually less bad than what i thought
<whitequark> mm, so like good t12? maybe a bit more
<whitequark> it's not awful
<azonenberg> base is literally 13.56 mhz (or 125 kHz) into handpiece
<azonenberg> and adjust for reflected power
<whitequark> yeah, i haven't realized the handpieces are cartridge based
<azonenberg> thermoregulation is all done by tip curie point
<whitequark> yep i know
<azonenberg> i have one temp but several tips
<azonenberg> for large vs small parts
<TD-Linux> metcal is great in the US because ebay is full of cheap used ones
<TD-Linux> with the newer cartridge based stuff (T12) the rf has less of an advantage
<TD-Linux> absolutely in no circumstances buy a new metcal :)
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<wren6991> We have metcals at work and they're awesome, but if you do fine-pitch stuff on cheap chinese pcbs, pads seem to just evaporate
<wren6991> Has anyone tried TS100? Not sure how practical they are, but look cute
<wren6991> and being able to modify firmware of my soldering iron just... speaks to me
<wren6991> Also fun fact: metcals will illuminate LEDs. Unsure of exact mechanism!
<sorear> is this some kind of tesla coil
<Sprite_tm> Oooh, I have a 2nd hand metcal as well, love the thing to bits.
<wren6991> More like a really tiny induction cooker, and the tip is a tiny frying pan
<Sprite_tm> Btw, fpga-related: I know the Ice40 tools have a quick way to replace the contents of a block ram in a bitstream; useful if you want to change a program without re-synthesizing the entire thing.
<Sprite_tm> Do the ECP5 tools also have something like this?
<flea86> Not officially :(
<flea86> No way to partially reconfigure afaik
<flea86> I also remember dave confirming that
<Sprite_tm> Ah, I don't care about partial reconfigurability, I'm willing to send the entire bitstream to the fpga all over again.
<Sprite_tm> I just want have something that can mod the bram initialization contents in a bitfile without resynthesizing everything.
<flea86> Well, your FPGA will be in no-man's land for a few brief milliseconds at least :)
<wren6991> flea86 I think he just wants to avoid synth + PnR, not trying to avoid flashing bitstream
<Sprite_tm> Indeed.
<flea86> I couldn't tell you for certain... all I know is Lattice tools don't allow it
<wren6991> I don't think that tool exists for ECP5 yet, but the icebram tool for iCE40 is fairly simple
<Sprite_tm> The Icestorm toolchain has icebram for this, but I'm not sure if ecp5 also has something.
<wren6991> you just generate a random bit vector which goes into the BRAM init during synthesis
<wren6991> and then after the fact, search for that random pattern to figure out how things got mapped to BRAMs
<wren6991> and overlay your new contents
<wren6991> the complex part is that the random bitstream can get swizzled and folded due to use of different port widths on the BRAMs, so it's not just a straightforward search
<Sprite_tm> Yah, I imagined it wouldn't be a simple find&replace...
<wren6991> I was concerned by the use of randomness but I did a quick calculation on probability of collision, and python gave me a probability of 0, with double-precision maths :)
<flea86> I've been rejigging the FleaFPGA Ohm's JTAG utility to move away from FTDI and use a micro
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<wren6991> Sprite_tm: icebram is only about 400 SLOC so you could reasonably roll your own, depending on how keen you are :)
<Sprite_tm> Hm, you
<Sprite_tm> 're right... it may even be adaptable.
<wren6991> flea86: oooh that's a cool board, can you solder it on top of a pi?
<flea86> yes, yes you can... as long as you don't tie the 3.3v rails together at least :)
<flea86> that's covered in the related UM
<flea86> wren6991: also thanks :)
<wren6991> I feel ya on FTDI, they're crazy overpriced for the functionality they offer
<wren6991> but then I try to write some USB code and I'm like oh... this is why they're popular
<Sprite_tm> FT2232H is pretty damn speedy tho'.
<flea86> wren6991: I also have the Ohm2 board I'm kicking around with now http://www.fleasystems.com/images/Ohm2.JPG
<flea86> Sprite_tm: Not gonna lie, that FTDI you noted is pretty nifty chip
<wren6991> Sprite_tm: I'm interested, have you managed to use the speed? Seems like most people are doing ~few Mbps serial
<whitequark> you can use FTDI at maximum USB line rate in parallel mode
<wren6991> oh yeah that is pretty awesome
<wren6991> Ok so they justify the HS PHY :) Just maybe not needed for programming an SPI flash
<flea86> yeah
<wren6991> and also not ideal because you end up polling over a piece of string instead of moving the polling up to the flash, with a micro
<flea86> My Ohm1 uses FT230x in bitbang mode for JTAG programming
<wren6991> FT2232H is nifty but I designed one into an FPGA board and was like "it costs HOW much"
<flea86> Which is admittedly not the fastest thing around but definitely passable relative to synthesis time
<Sprite_tm> wren6991: Agreed :) but I like to have a jtag board or two around which I can just hook up to something.
<flea86> my new JTAG solution will be much faster
<wren6991> Lol I'm currently programming my FPGA over a UART so can't complain
<Sprite_tm> I mean, it's got my '45F reconfigured in 1.3 seconds.
<Sprite_tm> Also the reason why I'm looking into the block ram thing.
<flea86> That's pretty quick in anyone's language... that's with or without header compression?
<wren6991> aaah cool
<flea86> @Sprite_tm
<Sprite_tm> flea86: I think without.
<Sprite_tm> Bitstream itself is 1.1MiB if that matters.
<flea86> Cool. Best I can do right now is ~8 seconds average for SRAM config of LFE5U-45
<flea86> For Ohm2 board
<flea86> but I am not doing bulk transfers or anything like that
<tnt> Anyone tried writting a glasgow applet for it yet ?
<Sprite_tm> Gotcha. I'll likely put an uC in the final incarnation of the board as well, but I'm waiting until that uC is actually manufactured ;)
<daveshah> With the FT2232H and OpenOCD for the Versa board also with the 45k, no compression, I see <1s program time
<flea86> Sprite_tm: oh? RISCV? :)
<Sprite_tm> daveshah: I'm not surprised, I probably could tweak my openocd config for moar speed.
<Sprite_tm> flea86: Erm... main proc of that chip is going to be Xtensa, no comments otherwise. Although I cannot guarantee that it'll be entirely RiscV-free.
<flea86> I should try getting my solution to work with OpenOCD as well as ispVME
<flea86> I see
<sorear> if anyone manages to find out the # of cycles required to configure an ecp5 in "slave parallel mode", lmk
<Sprite_tm> The RiscV bit is what the FPGA is for ;)
<flea86> heh fair enough
<sorear> the slave serial mode has no backpressure, so you can calculate the maximum time as (bitstream size in bits / max cCLK)
<sorear> but the parallel mode has a /BUSY and the datasheet gives no hints for how long and how often it will be asserted
<flea86> Sprite_tm: I've already got an extensa on my Ohm2, so far my impressions are mixed
<Sprite_tm> Ahrg, something is wrong with my firmware and the synthesis cycle takes too long. Pulling the trigger here; I'm gonna whip up a bram replacement thingamajig.
<Sprite_tm> flea86: How so?
<sorear> max clock is ~ 50 MHz; it should be well under a second in any case
<whitequark> xtensa is not very open, is it?
<whitequark> is there even an isa manual?
<Sprite_tm> whitequark: No :/ there is an isa manual out there, but it's leaked rather than official :/
<flea86> Sprite_tm: Well, so far most of the example firmwares (that I'd like to see working) are all rather buggy :(
<sorear> is the leaked isa manual what espressif used for the recent 3rd party llvm port?
<whitequark> i'm pretty sure espressif has access to real manuals
<whitequark> as... an xtensa licensee..
<Sprite_tm> sorear: No, Espressif has an NDA, so the manual access is official.
<sorear> yes but legally can the people writing open-source code look at the NDA manuals?
<Sprite_tm> As long as the NDA allows it; it's effectively a contract. No idea what the NDA between Cadence and Espressif says, but I'd think it should be ok.
<Sprite_tm> Also flea86, which examples in particular do you mean?
<flea86> Sprite_tm: Oh, just some random examples.. like the SLIP modem router example (for retro computing projects etc.). as well as the web-based BASIC editor stuff
<Sprite_tm> Ah, gotcha, I thought you meant the examples that came with the SDK.
<Sprite_tm> If those were buggy, I could go kick some people :P
<flea86> lol
<flea86> I would too
<flea86> I realize my Ohm2 is somewhat redundant in lieu of boards like ULX3s. Just doing it for myself for now I suppose heh.
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<Sprite_tm> Eh, I took up this as a good excuse to get into SoCs and to see if I could hand-solder a BGA.
<flea86> I found my answer to that, it was "With great difficulty"
<Sprite_tm> Eh, it actually went easier than I thought. Got it first time right as well.
<tnt> Sprite_tm: did you use an oven, skillet, or hot air ?
<flea86> Sprite_tm: I suspect you did your homework first heh
<Sprite_tm> Hot air. Plus some Louis Rossman-levels of flux.
<flea86> That dude's got some mad skillz
<wren6991> Watching a Rossman video now
<wren6991> apparently TS100 can take T12 tips?
<Sprite_tm> flea86: Don't underestimate how much better you get when you have a decent stereomicroscope at your disposal. Those things are like magic.
<flea86> Sprite_tm: Oh I believe it. Didn't have a hope in hell until I got *something* resembling a good magnifier
<flea86> stereo optics would be awesome tho
<wren6991> "yeah this solders just as well as the normal hakko" -- louis rossman. has anyone tried these lil irons? T12 tip compatibility is an extra plus :) I'm not sure how the ergonomics are with the long reach though
<wren6991> the problem with stereo microscopes is you realise how messy your soldering actually is
<wren6991> nothing looks good under them
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<whitequark> my $20 T12 controller solders almost as well as the $500 hakko
<whitequark> it's got a few glitches, but not $480 of them
<wren6991> lol
<wren6991> what is the conversion rate of dollars to watts
<flea86> I still miss my trusty old Hakko 936 station. I loaned it and it got trashed. RIP.
<flea86> *loaned it out
<wren6991> my home iron is still something involving a lightbulb dimmer circuit that I got off ebay when I was 16
<whitequark> that's brutal
<whitequark> wooden toys, nailed to the ceiling
<wren6991> what do you mean?
<wren6991> It makes a weird 50 Hz sound at medium temperatures
<wren6991> but other than that it's ok, and I can usually find tips for it
<wren6991> it's temp controlled in the sense of "more" or "less"
<whitequark> it's like "we were going uphill both ways", an exaggerated statement about a barren childhood
<wren6991> ahhhh
<whitequark> i think "wooden toys, nailed to the floor" is some kind of traditional thing, i'm not sure
<whitequark> and "nailed to the ceiling" is parodying it
<whitequark> anyway, i can't imagine using that setup, other than as a party trick :p
<flea86> wren6991: Still, that sounds more sophisticated than an open fire and copper cattle-prod :)
<wren6991> I originally learned to solder by just rubbing my hands together until the PCB was hot enough
<flea86> Problem is, you don't want the PCB to be hot enough to melt solder :P
<wren6991> Yes this was one of the many practical issues with this scheme
<flea86> lol
<sorear> pure Ga solder
<daveshah> Taking the chipquik concept a bit far
<whitequark> lol
<whitequark> just amalgamate your components onto the PCB traces.
<whitequark> what could go wrong.
<whitequark> you could market it as a connection more reliable than a weld.
<parport0> nice
<sorear> live on the south pole, use neat mercury
<azonenberg> wren6991: your metcal is probably set too hot for the cheap chinese boards
<azonenberg> guessing the work iron is calibrated for SAC305 and the cheap boards are meant for lead solder
<whitequark> see, not so niche :P
<azonenberg> whitequark: well its not something i have ever had to deal with because all of my boards are 370HR or FR408
<azonenberg> or, in the future, rogers
<azonenberg> i dont normally deal with ultra-cheap stuff
<azonenberg> i also dont use non-rohs solder
<flea86> Oh man, I hate reworking boards that were previously done using SAC305
<whitequark> azonenberg: thats why you ought to correct your advice imo
<whitequark> your main use case is everyone else's niche use case
<whitequark> and vice versa
<azonenberg> i dont get the obsession with lead solder
<azonenberg> sac is what the industry uses, it's easy to find
<azonenberg> pretty much all bga parts are sac by default and you either can't find lead balls, or you can only get them in the $$$ space/medical/defense grade ones
<flea86> and automotive grade too
<azonenberg> just use rohs solder and boards meant for it, and you wont have problems
<sorear> abbreviating chemical symbols to 1 latin letter each is vaguely cursed
<flea86> since they're also exempt
<azonenberg> sorear: well scandium-gold-chromium solder is unlikely to become mainstream so...
<azonenberg> flea86: i keep one small spool of lead solder around
<azonenberg> for the sole purpose of reworking non-rohs boards
<azonenberg> i dont think i have touched it in the past year
<flea86> azonenberg: I see. My station doesn't go high enough in temp to rework rohs.. so I am forced to cheat and apply pb :/
<flea86> Ultimately, I need a new station
<sorear> roughly what fraction of new commercial electronics are non-rohs?
<flea86> Good question. Maybe 10%?
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<azonenberg> i dont think i've ever seen a soldering iron that cant get hot enough to melt sac o_O
<azonenberg> the $40 aoyue i used for 8 years before buying the hakko went up to like 450C
<azonenberg> sac305 melts at 219
<azonenberg> (maybe it went past 450, i never ran it nearly that hot)
<flea86> azonenberg: Well, it probably was hot enough, thirteen years ago :)
<flea86> it's one of those early shitty hakko knockoffs.. a genuine combined station was going to set me back over a grand back then
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<azonenberg> o_O
<azonenberg> i wanna say i got my metcal-esque hakko for like 500
<azonenberg> then another 150-200 for the super fine pitch handpiece and a range of tips
<whitequark> just the soldering iron is 500, their iron plus hot air ones are more expensive
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<wren6991_> azonenberg: you're right :) those irons are normally used for RoHS multilayer boards. I just also happen to use them for my hobby projects
<wren6991_> Having to change the tip to change the temperature is annoying though
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<sorear> I'm still wondering if wren6991_'s complaint about *vaporizing* pads on chinese pcbs was meant literally
<wren6991_> No
<wren6991_> just delaminate with very little pressure + contact time
<wren6991_> huh where did the underscore come from
<wren6991_> typo probably
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<sorear> wren6991: most clients, if you try to connect with user name asdf and there's already a user asdf, you get assigned asdf_ instead
<sorear> this is up to the client and other conventions exist, but "add trailing underscores" is common
<whitequark> whitequa1k
<sorear> this can either be another person using the name or (more often) your old connection still looking open on the server's end, even though your end is obviously dropped
<sorear> ~ distributed systems ~
<wren6991> Ah interesting! Thank you
<wren6991> whitequark: And the larger whitequa8k, and whitequa4k which is the same thing but in a different package
<whitequark> lmao
<whitequark> and a whitequaup5k which is slightly larger than 4k but drunk.
<sorear> very low static energy dissipation, though
<whitequark> so that's why i constantly get shocked on random metal object
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<cr1901_modern> B/c my mind is weird, I've always managed to pronounce whitequa1k as "white caulk" (like the sealant)
<whitequark> please donot use me on bathroom furniture
* cr1901_modern snickers
<cr1901_modern> or window frames?
<wren6991> *notices your DSP primitives* owo what's this
<wren6991> agh I had plans but I'm just watching louis rossmann soldering
<cr1901_modern> wren6991: Well if we're discussing what we're doing right now, I just prepared a snack of cheese and crackers and I can barely taste the cheese. The packaging said "extra sharp" ffs
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<Sprite_tm> Well, that was simpler than I thought. Whipped up a quick something that only works on 32-bit BRAMs but it seems to do the job.
<tnt> ecpbram ?
<Sprite_tm> More-or-less yeah. The code is a quick hack so I haven't called it that, but that's what it does.
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<flea86> Sprite_tm: Nice. So basically you're able to mod the BRAM contents in a ROM bitstream?
<Sprite_tm> Yep.
<Sprite_tm> Well actually, the config file that ecppack converts to the bitstream and svf file, but the ecppack step takes only a second or so extra.
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<flea86> Still cool :D
<flea86> ok gtg
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<eddyb> 12:44 <azonenberg> i dont get the obsession with lead solder
<eddyb> azonenberg: this is great news for my brother, who is quite (un)healthily terrified of lead :P
<azonenberg> i mean realistically solder is among the least harmful forms of lead
<azonenberg> it's not finely powderered or in any kind of organic compound
<azonenberg> So bioavailability is super low
<eddyb> azonenberg: thanks (but I suspect that won't comfort him as much as it does me)
<azonenberg> i mean i still dont like using neurotoxic materials when i can avoid it
<azonenberg> But it's not as nasty as a lot of other ways you can be exposed to lead
<azonenberg> (fwiw i still use rohs solder for everything, but it's mostly for convenience rather than safety)
<eddyb> yeah if I can ensure everything I touch is RoHS, I'll just do that, but I'm less sure about older boards I just happened to find
<SolraBizna> lead solder may be theoretically toxic, sure, but that just makes it easier for my project to outlive me :P
<tnt> I still use leaded solder ... I tried lead free once like 8y ago and found it just wasn't working as well for me and really haven't retried since. I just found the roll I still had it's a Sn99Cu1.
<azonenberg> well the way i see i see it is, the industry has moved to sac305 (Sn + 3% Ag + 0.5% Cu)
<azonenberg> all of the bgas etc are made with it
<TD-Linux> paste is more finely powdered so eh
<eddyb> e.g. I have an old WD Blue control board here that I thought could be useful for SMT desoldering/(re)soldering practice
<TD-Linux> but yeah sac305 is fine. joints won't be shiny but that's ok
<eddyb> actually, I think it might have at least one BGA chip, so now I'm curious what kind of solder it's actually using
<tnt> For small components it might not make a difference, but when I need to solder a giant lead to a giant ground plane, having to get it 30C higher temp is not reassuring.
<azonenberg> i mean older bgas were snpcb
<azonenberg> snpb*
<azonenberg> tnt: just means you need a decent iron
<TD-Linux> pretty sure the wd blue branding is new enough to be sac
<tnt> azonenberg: yeah :/ Still using a weller.
<eddyb> TD-Linux: this is... date code 46 12
<TD-Linux> yeah easily :)
<eddyb> I am assuming week 46, 2012
<azonenberg> yeah thats waaaay after rohs
<azonenberg> almost certainly sac
<azonenberg> tnt: i mean weller does make good stuff
<azonenberg> But they have cheaper stuff too
<tnt> azonenberg: I have a WD-1 base and WP-80 pencil.
<eddyb> azonenberg: would I be able to tell (just by melting point) with a good (de)soldering station? but not hot air, I'm guessing
<eddyb> wait, so it being sold in the EU after a certain year is enough for it to be guaranteed RoHS?
<SolraBizna> if GNDPLLx/VCCPLLx are unconnected, and PLLx is unused, that won't release the magic smoke, right?
<eddyb> that almost sounds too good to be true :P
<azonenberg> SolraBizna: it might
<azonenberg> more likely it will use high power and oscillate or do nasty things
<azonenberg> since gnd/vcc are likely connected in package
<azonenberg> but not super directly
<azonenberg> eddyb: unless it has one of a handful of exemptions
<azonenberg> medical, space, etc
<SolraBizna> I want to put them on a connector that won't necessarily be populated, especially during board programming
<eddyb> azonenberg: I'm an idiot, all the right logos are on the HDD label itself, just not on the board
<eddyb> so I can just assume any board is lead-free
<SolraBizna> oh, I guess if it always has to be 1.2V, there's no point doing that
<SolraBizna> never mind!
<eddyb> hmm, so the main hazard is consumer electronics before the 2000s, like, say, an old Pentium II PC (that's probably the oldest thing I have; I've been wondering if I can run that CPU with an FPGA acting as the chipset :D)
<azonenberg> pwnage from ##openfpga was trying to do exactly that with a pentium... 4? i forget which gen
<azonenberg> it was the last intel cpu compatible with oshpark design rules, which was his reasoning
<azonenberg> i dont think he ever had time to make it happen
<azonenberg> from #oshpark i mean
<eddyb> lol oshpark :D
<eddyb> I wouldn't touch a pentium 4, jeez
<azonenberg> but he was planning on making a spartan6 based northbridge
<eddyb> oh right mine is something like this https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Pentium_II.jpg
<eddyb> it's basically a rescue from ages ago because I didn't want someone to throw it out, but I haven't even ever booted it
<eddyb> oh wow they have made converters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1
* eddyb didn't realize Intel had put caches outside the main die in that thing
<eddyb> does that mean that I can snoop CPU<->cache communication if I open the case?
<eddyb> but also, it's card edge, so this might be easier to work with than a socket :D
<TD-Linux> intel had caches outside the main die for everything before that too
<eddyb> TD-Linux: yeah I just had no idea
<TD-Linux> 486 has external upgradeable cache cards
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<SolraBizna> because I like trying to do things that are way more complicated than I can handle... I'm trying to make my core able to switch between a 32KHz clock for low power and a some-MHz clock for high speed
<SolraBizna> I vaguely remember people talking about the iCE40 PLLs being cursed, and I know clock routing is both important and hard
<SolraBizna> it seems to me that I can't safely switch between one and the other without some kind of magic
<azonenberg> SolraBizna: look up glitchless clock muxing
<azonenberg> xilinx parts include hard IP for this (BUFGMUX)
<azonenberg> don't know about the siliconblue stuff
<SolraBizna> thanks
<azonenberg> in general unless you have weird dynamic logic
<azonenberg> running slower than your fmax is not a problem
<azonenberg> the problem is just the transition itself
<SolraBizna> indeed
<SolraBizna> thankfully, apart from the oscillators themselves, the freakiest dynamic aspect of this system is HyperRAM, which (I believe) is strictly synchronous
<azonenberg> Does it have a fmin constraint though?
<azonenberg> hyperram is DRAM internally, but i think it handles refreshes automatically for you
<azonenberg> and just randomly spikes latency
<azonenberg> i never got that far with my controller for it
<azonenberg> i have it on a few boards and have been too busy to fully bring it up
<SolraBizna> no fmin in the datasheet, only fmaxes that are well above what an iCE40 could hope to do anyway
<SolraBizna> the "random" latency spiking matches what I remember, there's some mild spookiness around RWDS
<SolraBizna> (again) because I like making things overly complicated, I'm actually intending to use a pair of HyperRAM+HyperFlash MCPs
<SolraBizna> because they're on a common clock, I get to have extra logic for when one part wants an extra wait state for refresh and the other doesn't
<SolraBizna> :D
<SolraBizna> (I at least have separate CS# for each part for when that inevitably turns out to be too hard to implement)
<SolraBizna> now I have just one clock question left, and that's how the heck do I pick a crystal
<SolraBizna> I "know" that my real fmax is going to be somewhere in the 15-40MHz range, but I don't know exactly where in that range, and I won't even have a better upper bound until well after the boards are assembled
<SolraBizna> I know that I can multiply the "output frequency" of the PLL blocks by certain fractions, but that's about all I know, and the official documentation is pretty handwavy on the details
<SolraBizna> and I know that choosing an excessively fast oscillator will mean unavoidable power consumption
<azonenberg> Cant help you there as i don't know the SB_PLL block at all. If you were using a xilinx part i could help...
<SolraBizna> having an answer for Xilinx parts would probably be better than nothing
<azonenberg> So, for an Artix-7 PLL the input signal needs to be 10 - 800 MHz
<azonenberg> After the input divider, the PFD frequency needs to be 10 - (450-550 depending on speed grade) MHz
<azonenberg> The VCO frequency needs to be 600 - (1200 - 1600 depending on speed grade)
<azonenberg> Each output has a divider from the VCO that can range from 1 to 128
<azonenberg> The VCO must be 2-64 times the PFD frequency
<azonenberg> The input divider range is 1 to 106
<azonenberg> All of these numbers are IP-specific, so what's true for a 7-series PLL won't be true for a spartan6 PLL or certainly any lattice part
* SolraBizna nods
<azonenberg> but this is the kind of data that you need in order to figure out how fast your input and output clock can be, what relationships they can have, etc
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<eddyb> looks like 33 address lines, 64 data lines, plus loads of other stuff
<eddyb> 128 IOs is a good guess, I think
<eddyb> azonenberg: how dumb would it be to try to build a PCIe chipset for a CPU that never had an official chipset that natively supported it :P
<felix_> the metcal soldering stations are awesome. got 3 used 40w base stations for 100 euros in total and new handpieces from another manufacturer for 80 euros each. totally worth the money
<eddyb> I'm guessing there is an ECP5 that can do all this
<eddyb> wow are they that cheap used? now I want to collect x86 chips and decap them (I know some ppl have done it up to 80486 or something) https://www.ebay.com/b/Intel-Pentium-II-Slot-1-Computer-Processors-CPUs/164/bn_88091502
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<tnt> "Info: Route time 100.94s" Damn this is getting long.
<daveshah> The current router does struggle with congestion
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<tnt> Yeah, congestion :p "Info: 9.6 ns logic, 24.1 ns routing"
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