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<freemint>
Has someone heard of microchip as a company name which produces FPGAs?
<tnt>
yeah they do.
<freemint>
Are their FPGAs worth looking into as an Lattice alternative or not really?
<kc8apf>
I'm assuming these are the old Atmel FPGAs
<tnt>
Microsemi is owned by microchip and has some nice stuff AFAIR.
<kc8apf>
is it the Microsemi?
<tnt>
But the pure microchip ones ... not really.
<freemint>
thanks.
<tnt>
The at40k stuff seems old, expensive, ...
<tnt>
maybe if you absolutely need 5v compat.
<kc8apf>
Atmel had older parts used in space and military
<freemint>
I am honestly confused by all the different metrics how to measure an FPGA. I have no idea how to compare offerings between different vendors.
<nats`>
it's a real problem even after years of using fpga
<nats`>
number of lut input is usually a good first indicator
<freemint>
LUT4 vs LUT6 vs gates vs registers vs logic cells vs slices cs flip-flops
<nats`>
after that you need to dig in the doc to see what features are available
<tnt>
Yeah # of regs + resources you know you might need (liek RAM / DSP).
<tnt>
But the reality is that until you actually try to fit your design, you might not really know.
<freemint>
How hard is it to setup $proprietary_toolchain_stuff to programm an XC6SLX9 / LX25?
<mwk>
annoying, but doable
<mwk>
you need lotsa disk space though
<freemint>
possible under Linux too?
<tnt>
Mostly I find the _download_ part to be annoying ...
<tnt>
freemint: yeah, they have linux support.
<mwk>
linux is the only one that actually works
<freemint>
that is somehow pleasently supprising
<mwk>
their "windows 10" version is a virtualbox with a linux inside
<mwk>
(there are proper windows versions, but they only support <= windows 7)
<freemint>
can i get my hands on the vitual box image on it's own? Then i would isolate my OS from this bulk ware
<mwk>
yeah, you can
<freemint>
How do you rate this idea?
<mwk>
*shrug* I prefer using my own linux
<mwk>
in a VM
<freemint>
Disk Space: 85 GB
<mwk>
their image is some... red hat, I think? can't stand it
<freemint>
I need to upgrade my storage first :)
<mwk>
also, the "windows 10" version and proper linux version have different device support
<freemint>
ahh good to know
<mwk>
"windows 10" supports all spartan 6 and only that; the proper linux version supports many different familiies, but only smol FPGAs
<mwk>
6slx9 and 6slx25 are supported by both
<freemint>
nice
<freemint>
Is there any reason i need to run this bulk locally? (Instead of some beefier root server in some datacenter)
<mwk>
not really, feel free to use commandline flow on a remote machine
<mwk>
(unless you really like their IDE)
<freemint>
So this means i get some bitstream on the server which i then copy to my local machine for flashing?
<mwk>
exceptions may include: chipscope, the IP core graphical wizards, impact (the programming tool)
<mwk>
yes
<mwk>
what board are you going to use?
<mwk>
xilinx has their own programming tool but tbh I never used it
<freemint>
I am not sure. I have an Mimas v2 lying around but that i do not want to reflash before september. I have looked into getting an Upduino 2 or a soon to be released board with an LX25 from the open source project i am working with ( #j-core ). I also had an eye for this https://www.crowdsupply.com/rhs-research/nitefury
<mwk>
ugh mimas
<freemint>
what do you dislike about it?
<freemint>
*December
<mwk>
tbh everything on this board is botched
<mwk>
but the main problem is the programmer
<mwk>
which is just a piece of shit
<freemint>
one more reason not to flash something else on it.
<mwk>
the only way I can stand using this board is by connecting a platform cable to the JTAG port
<mwk>
thus bypassing their crap programmer
<mwk>
that works reasonably well
<freemint>
Ok . Good to know
<mwk>
second: the programmer is also an UART, using a ridiculously bad 19200 baudrate
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<mwk>
I mean *WHY*
<freemint>
Yes ... i know, faster speed is possible under windows somehow
<mwk>
what?
<freemint>
i recall something like that let me check
<mwk>
I saw a replacement firmware project on github that could perhaps be used to make the programmer suck less, and enable higher baudrate, and avoid the batshit insane "uart vs programmer" switch
<mwk>
that's probably the only hope for this board
<mwk>
ah, that's the thing, yes
<mwk>
hmm or not
<mwk>
I saw some different one
<mwk>
it didn't involve windows
<freemint>
I heard that FPGA compile cycles are really long. How long would say it takes to compile something that uses most of an LX9, LX25 or Xilinx Artix XC7A200T ?
<tnt>
depends on the design ...
<mwk>
you know the 7a200t is like 20× larger than 6slx9?
<mwk>
depends wildly
<tnt>
A complex design in a 200T that pushes timing could easily be hours.
<mwk>
FYI an *empty project* with vivado takes like 5 minutres, which is ridiculous
<freemint>
No, i did not know.
<tpw_rules>
in quartus it's only 2, but i have a really fast machine
<mwk>
hours on a 7a200t? I'd say you can reach 24h easily if you fill the fpga
<TD-Linux>
my ice40 design takes under 10 seconds
<TD-Linux>
you generally want the smallest fpga that works, for mainly cost reasons, but development time also counts :)
<freemint>
ok is compile time roughly linear or does grow faster with gate count?
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<tnt>
TD-Linux: I have ice40 designs that take 5-10 min to build :)
<TD-Linux>
tnt, are you tweaking the default nextpnr thresholds?
<tnt>
TD-Linux: no, that's using HeAP not SA.
<TD-Linux>
yikes. how did you manage that? :)
<tnt>
trying to run things fast, and apparently lots of routing :p
<freemint>
I am not looking to sell my designs or anything. I am trying to get some additional skills while i am still in university.
<tnt>
freemint: time is much more a factor of the deisng than the fpga.
<freemint>
what do you mean by that?
<tnt>
that you could get a LX9 design that takes 1h and a 200T design that take 30min.
<freemint>
ahh i get that.
<freemint>
I read you wrong and thought you were criticizing my attempts at skill building
<nats`>
freemint, if you don't have a specific project in minbd and just want to learn ice40 is a good target
<nats`>
full opensource support is available
<mwk>
that or ecp5
<nats`>
the arch is simple and yet you can do interesting stuff
<nats`>
and devboard are really cheap
<nats`>
if you want a little more power I would say get a cheap artix 7 devboard
<TD-Linux>
yeah I second ice40. you can always jump to ecp5 if you run out of space, but *lots* of stuff fits in an ice40 fine
<freemint>
I am aware. A bigger one (Artix 7) might allow to work on other usecases like an accelerator ODE solver or something fun. I will get my feed wet with an ice40 or an lx25 first but in the long run (>2 years) i might(!) want to go in to the HPC direction.
<freemint>
what would you consider and cheap artix board?
<TD-Linux>
I would pick ecp5 until I can't fit it in the 85F
<nats`>
I would say give up on spartan 6
<nats`>
I know some people still use it but it's really outdated and the price doesn't justify it
<freemint>
I am so keen on spartan 6 because an OS project i work uses them.
<freemint>
mhh PicoEVB vs night furry 1.6 times more expensive but 4x times the luts.
<nats`>
ah an other parameter
<nats`>
try to get a board with integrated programming probe/flasher
<mwk>
one that doesn't suck as badly as mimas
<nats`>
otherwise you have to pay an other 50 to 300$ following which one you choose :D
<nats`>
when possible I would say an itnegrated JTAG probe
<nats`>
debugging without jtag is a pain in the ass
<freemint>
I am not sure what to pick. Can you help me understand what an Atrix 7 5xc7a50T / 5xc7a35T is capable of doing?
<nats`>
that question has absolutely no answer...
<freemint>
i know ...
<mwk>
freemint: they're all FPGAs, they do programmable logic
<mwk>
so — whatever you want it to do
<nats`>
I think he's talking int erml of size
<nats`>
term
<mwk>
I'd say look more at the board and what interfaces it has
<nats`>
yep
<nats`>
in all the case you'll start by blinking led and maybe sending few udp packet :)
<nats`>
then you'll see :)
<freemint>
ICE40 can do a really small CPU design at <50 Mhz
<freemint>
(ICE40 up5k f.e. )
<freemint>
(32 bit cpu though)
<GenTooMan>
like the Pico Risc-v
<freemint>
an LX25 (from my understanding) is capable of being a dual core of small CPUs or a bigger single core CPU which is 2 way superscalar with 128 bit FPU and some vector processing like 4d dot products.
<freemint>
This it what i learned so far. But how does that scale to artix 7
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<freemint>
when i care about floating point speed (and a price smaller $350) what FPGA family would i look for?
<freemint>
*speed->throughput
<nats`>
forget about ice40 I would say
<nats`>
ECP Artix or Altera Cyclone
<mwk>
I'd say you want a GPU
<nats`>
some recent altera fpga have hard FPU block
<nats`>
but yes I join mwk :D
<nats`>
a GPU will be better :D
<freemint>
SO GPUs give better price/performance for floating point?