<ipfsbot>
[js-ipfs] diasdavid created greenkeeper-interface-ipfs-core-0.5.1 (+1 new commit): https://git.io/v6OiV
<ipfsbot>
js-ipfs/greenkeeper-interface-ipfs-core-0.5.1 3e8f9c4 greenkeeperio-bot: chore(package): update interface-ipfs-core to version 0.5.1...
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<ipfsbot>
[js-ipfs] diasdavid deleted greenkeeper-interface-ipfs-core-0.5.1 at 3e8f9c4: https://git.io/v6OPH
<ipfsbot>
[js-ipfs-api] dignifiedquire deleted greenkeeper-interface-ipfs-core-0.5.1 at 728fd90: https://git.io/v6OP7
<ipfsbot>
[webui] greenkeeperio-bot opened pull request #452: Update eslint-plugin-promise to version 2.0.1
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<jsrockss>
quiet today
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<Aelius>
As I understand it, ipfs separates files into chunks- as in, peer A has file 1 and peer b has file 2. file 1 and file 2 are 90% similar. If I wanted to download file 1 from ipfs, peer A would be a 'seed' and peer B would act as a, well, peer'
<Aelius>
in bit torrent terms.
<Aelius>
Is my understanding correct? Peer B will share the relevant parts of file 2?
<jsrockss>
I believe you are correct
<Aelius>
If this is the case, it seemed logical to me that this would apply locally, too. I have file 1 and file 2 which are 90% similar; let's say 1024 bytes each. I expected then, that when I added file 1 to ipfs, it would increase by 1024B, and then when I added file 2, I expected it to increase by only the difference
<Aelius>
However, this did not happen. The full size of both files exists within my .ipfs folder, as it doubled in size when I added file 2
<jsrockss>
I imagine it depends on the chunking algorithm
<davidar>
depends on your definition of similar, but yes, both will seed identical chunks
<davidar>
chunks are generally much larger than 1024 bytes
<Aelius>
So this should be here, now? Or is it planned
<Aelius>
What I specifically did was to take a video and remove the audio from it. Same video, no audio track. added both to ipfs (200MB each), .ipfs folder grew by 400MB
<Aelius>
both the original video, and the video with no audio*
<davidar>
it's unlikely that those two files would have any common chunks
<Aelius>
Why is that?
<davidar>
given that video and audio are usually interleaved with each other, afaik
<Aelius>
I think that's literally only with avi
<Aelius>
I could be wrong
<Aelius>
I'll try this experiment again, but with a trimmed video instead of removing a track
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<Aelius>
davidar: even with a simple trim of a video, the entire video is added
<jsrockss>
I assume the chunking algorithm literally just chops up the file
<Aelius>
rather, the used space increases by the size of the trimmed video
<jsrockss>
even a single bit offset in the beginning would change all the chunks
<davidar>
yeah, the default chunker isn't necessarily very intelligent
<Aelius>
What I'm curious to know is, is this just not implemented in the alpha yet, is it not implemented locally, will it be implemented locally, or will the chunker become intelligent?
<Aelius>
If this is the expected behavior, to me it seems the chunking logic is effectively worthless
<Aelius>
What narrow use cases would it apply to?
<davidar>
you can try the rabin chunker, which is slightly more intelligent (although not sure if it would help in this case)
<davidar>
same reason bittorrent does it - so that you can request different chunks from different peers
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<Aelius>
It seemed to me that one of the advertised strengths of ipfs was github like chunking, where the difference of files is tracked to create more peers and reduce data redundancy
<Aelius>
This is currently not happening- but from what I can tell, you're just speculating about this; we don't know that it's not just unimplemented at this point, right?
<Codebird>
Aelius: IPFS's approach to chunking and thus implicit deduplication can save space as you wish, but only under very specific circumstances which are rarely encountered.
<Codebird>
It will, however, always (baring times when the chunking algorithm is changed, which may happen at this stage of development) work at a file level. Ie, if you have a folder with file1.bin, file2.bin and file3.bin, and a second folder with file1.bin, file2.bin and file4.bin, then file1 and file2 will only be stored once even though they occur within two directories.
<Codebird>
Regarding effective deduplication between similar files, you're never going to see that happen with a media file vs the same file with different audio because the streams are interleaved. The most likely place for it to occur would be within disk images or archives, and even then only with rabin chunking.
<Codebird>
I don't know if IPFS uses that yet, though I know it was proposed a long time ago.
<davidar>
of course, you could also manually chunk things to force better dedup
<davidar>
rabin is available, but I'm not sure it's the default (yet)
<demize>
Seems the default is the size splitter.
<demize>
You can do `--spliter rabin` though.
<demize>
Seems you can also specify at what size to split with the size splitter, hmm.
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<reit>
<davidar> of course, you could also manually chunk things to force better dedup
<reit>
that isn't current possible though, is it?
<reit>
*currently
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<davidar>
reit: it is, it's just not particularly easy :p
<reit>
huh, didn't know that, do you mean within ipfs as-is or via some third-party application-level scaffolding on top of it?
<davidar>
I can't say I've done it, but I'm pretty sure you can do it with `ipfs object`
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<reit>
mmm, i recall spending some time mucking with `ipfs object patch` a while back, at the time it seemed you could only put together directories, not do custom chunking of specific objects
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<reit>
if you think it's possible i might have another look at it at some point though
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<nicolagreco>
dignifiedquire:
<nicolagreco>
dignifiedquire: I was wondering how much bandwidth you had to implement a few things on IPLD (otherwise I can find time)
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<JJJollyjim>
Hey, are blocks stored in the blocks directory of the repo or in the datastore?
<JJJollyjim>
Because the go-ipfs code seems to point to the datastore, but I still seem to have blocks stored in .ipfs/blocks
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<dignifiedquire>
nicolagreco: depends on how much, I will be offline most of the weekend, but I should have some bandwith middle of next week
<dignifiedquire>
jsrockss: so sorry didn't get to it yet
<Kubuxu>
JJJollyjim: they are stored in blocks directory
<Kubuxu>
datastore is used for storage of metadata
<Kubuxu>
When you look at datastore code `/` is in datastore dir and `/blocks` path is in blocks dir.
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<IlanGodik>
IPNS publish seems to take a very long time to complete, something like 5 seconds.
<IlanGodik>
Is it reasonable?
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<Kubuxu>
IlanGodik: it is because it has to connect to about 20 other people that are in correct dht group.
<Kubuxu>
5 seconds is still nice, we will be working to make it faster..
<IlanGodik>
Kubuxu: Yeah, makes sense. Will have to do it less frequently then :)
<Kubuxu>
If you are hitting this as a problem then you are looking for a pub/sub, something we also we working on.
<IlanGodik>
I'm making an FS for windows on top of IPFS-files, and am publishing the root automatically
<Kubuxu>
Unfortunately, it isn't ready yet.
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<Kubuxu>
You could make it lazy then.
<IlanGodik>
In what sense lazily? I'm already doing it only after a flush (coming after several writes)
<IlanGodik>
So now I'm doing it with some minimal delay
<Kubuxu>
Yeah, something like that.
<IlanGodik>
So I've added an interesting system of following to my FS
<Kubuxu>
I don't know how current FUSE subsystem does that, but it might be similar.
<IlanGodik>
I think the fuse subsystem doesn't allow writes, and IPFS-files doesn't publish
<IlanGodik>
And I'm allowing cycles in the filesystem graph, but only certain kinds of cycles
<IlanGodik>
So the use case of say, Dropbox is possible: it's just bidirectional following of two users
<IlanGodik>
Maybe I'll share a bit more later :)
<Codebird>
How is the successor to IPNS coming along?
<Kubuxu>
IlanGodik: it allows in `/ipns/local/
<IlanGodik>
Kubuxu: Oh, didn't know that :) does that location reference the IPFS-files system?
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<IlanGodik>
Kubuxu: Apparently fuse-ipns publishes via the regular republisher, short = 300ms, long = 3s
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<KYC-CHAIN>
question: approximately how much to store a 3 second video in IPFS?
<brendyn>
how much what??
<apiarian>
use a gif?
<KYC-CHAIN>
how much for a gif?
<apiarian>
$25
<KYC-CHAIN>
$25 permanently?
<KYC-CHAIN>
it is the permanent web
<KYC-CHAIN>
answered my own question. Thanks!
<apiarian>
ò.o
<apiarian>
no, that was $25 for me to make you a 3 second gif or video
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<Kubuxu>
KYC-CHAIN: it was a joke
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<KYC-CHAIN>
haha nice joke
<KYC-CHAIN>
i'll stick to fiverr ;-)
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<Aelius>
Codebird I'm surprised there were still no common chunks with an mkv that was simply trimmed, though.
<Codebird>
Maybe with rabin chunking.
<Aelius>
Just tried rabin (ipfs add $file --chunker rabin)
<Aelius>
no difference
<Aelius>
:/
<Codebird>
Depends on how the file is structured internally then.
<brendyn>
Is ipfs intended to only be a DHT on the clearnet? I was thinking it would be ablesome if the datastore and downloading / seeding components could be separated, so for example if in conjunction with other projects like gnunet, the ipfs multihash+merkledag could be agreed upon as the file system, but a variety of transfer protocols and rules could be definined. For example I there could be ipfs pin add --network
<brendyn>
gnunet Qm... which would transparently hook into gnunet and seed the file there instead of the public DHT
<brendyn>
likewise with downloading, one could choose to download a file via a particular network instead of the public DHT which can be monitored en mass by terrorist organisations like the USA
<brendyn>
Do these ideas sound sensible at all?
<Codebird>
The merkledag is just a data structure. It should be easy to run it on any form of network that has 'find block' and 'get block' capabilities.
<Codebird>
A DHT is just a practical way to solve the 'find block' in a fully distributed manner.
<brendyn>
Yeah, I like it. but if other methods of find block/get block are supported, IPFS can be more like the universal file system, with a variety of sharing protocols supported
<brendyn>
Atleast, that's my personal dream. what do ipfs devs think?
<Aelius>
Codebird yeah, with rabin chunking, it recognizes flv chunks. The flv format is constructed linearly so this makes sense
<Aelius>
I was able to add a 60MB flv file that was the same as another already pinned file but shorter, and my .ipfs dir did not grow in size for than a MB or so
<Aelius>
I wonder if it would be viable to implement some sort of media specific chunking algorithm so that mp4/mkv could benefit
<Codebird>
Aelius: This idea has already been considered and rejected. The problem is that this would provide benefits over rabin only in very niche situations.
<brendyn>
Does the chunking affect what's sent over the network, or is it purely a local datastore thing?
<Codebird>
And it's a lot of extra code and complexity to maintain.
<Codebird>
Bren: Network too.
<brendyn>
So if we are using different chunking methods and share to each other, will something malfunction?
<Aelius>
I wouldn't consider the deduplication of hosted video to be niche, but I can understand the aversion to complexity.
<Codebird>
Deduplication of hosted video that is bit-to-bit identical in sections. Which doesn't happen much.
<Aelius>
consider services like twitch and youtube which allow users to trim their videos
<Aelius>
twitch promotes this feature as sharing highlights
<Aelius>
it would be a huge boon for twitch.tv in particular, I think
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<Codebird>
It would only work on trimmed files, not cut-and-reencoded ones. And in formats which don't have any sort of timestamp or frame counter per-frame, or any timestamps relative to file start.
<Aelius>
at any rate, I do think you're right that this should probably be handled externally of ipfs; transcoding video into a format more easily chunked
<apiarian>
this sort of chunking would probably need to be supported on the video file encoding level, though, right? so when you pull chunks out of a video, you would re-encode the original to have a sensible structure around the chunks so that they *could* be deduplicated
<Aelius>
^
<Codebird>
It's just not going to be practical for any format not designed for it - and on those it would work on, so would rabin.
<apiarian>
wav + compression-less tiffs! =D
<brendyn>
Maybe we can start running IPFS with 100+TiB tape storage, which would also simulate interplanetary latencies
<apiarian>
though, you can describe an MKV as a combination of various sub-files, and players will happily re-assemble things for you. you can even say that a part should be played in the middle of another file. (tv-shows with consistent opening and closing sections for example)
<Aelius>
Maybe we should be coercing the h26x devs to start thinking of a chunking-friendly format for h266
<Aelius>
apiarian: yeah containers shouldn't be an issue at all, just the video/audio formats
<M-Purple>
or the files are just some kind of video-editing diff?
<M-Purple>
so the original video is vewed and the video is editied on the fly with those applied diffs
<apiarian>
Aelius: right, but my point is you could use an mkv container and re-encode, re-shuffle things on the back end when you want to extract parts as separate videos
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<Aelius>
right
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<Codebird>
Tv-shows with consistent opening and closing sections encoded by the same version of the same encoder on the same configuration and from a bit-to-bit identical input file, rather than different broadcasts with slightly different noise.
<Aelius>
The way mkv does that is to have a separate opening.mkv and ending.mkv which each individual ep#.mkv points to, so yeah ipfs won't help there. mkv already did the deduplication
<dignifiedquire>
well we could just use the same multistream header as go for now and for secio I don't need a custom build
<dignifiedquire>
(in theory)
<voxelot>
daviddias: thanks for taking a look! sorry for leaving that half complete, i started a list of things that need be done and plan to pick back up after this baby shower i have to go to tonight =/
<daviddias>
that sounds fun! :D
<daviddias>
its all good :) my apologies for taking so much time in reviewing
<daviddias>
dignifiedquire: there is the identify thing
<dignifiedquire>
which identify thing? isn't that merged into master yet?
<daviddias>
go-ipfs still expects the pubkey to come from secio
<dignifiedquire>
that's okay for me as I will be testi g with secio enabled
<dignifiedquire>
or we run on teamcity with go env and build a custom binary feom a specified branch on ci run
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<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] whyrusleeping pushed 1 new commit to feat/hamt-sharding: https://git.io/v633p
<ipfsbot>
go-ipfs/feat/hamt-sharding 918e24b Jeromy: refactor resolved to allow transparent resolution of unixfs sharded paths...
<fiatjaf>
is there a canonical way of sharing text on ipfs?
<jsrockss>
i do echo 'text' | ipfs add
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<fiatjaf>
I imagine some people will be sharing the same text with html markup, others with metadata written in the file, others with markdown markup
<fiatjaf>
so the same text will be treated as different everywhere
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<apiarian>
yar! IPGS now actually does something with other players' states distributed through IPFS!
<jsrockss>
dignifiedquire: no big deal, i commented with some potential clues in the pull request
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<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] zramsay opened pull request #3048: boot2docker-cli is deprecated, removed from README (master...boot2docker-is-deprecated) https://git.io/v630Q
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