* MikeFair
wonders how many people know that "IP" was designed with "interplaentary" in mind.
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<MikeFair>
AphelionZ, I'm really curious if your solution extends to a swarm of dockers
<MikeFair>
Icefoz, My general stance is that we can't get rid of central authorities (they're too useful) but we can choose our central authorities and make them replaceable
<MikeFair>
Icefoz, So an internet that addresses both "sources of authority" and "content" is how I think we can best organize ourselves
<Kythyria[m]>
Not everything is easily adapted to content-addressable form.
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<Kythyria[m]>
Think telephone calls, for instance :)
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<AphelionZ>
I didnt use docker tho
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<AphelionZ>
I ended up embedding ipfs within the node app
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<AphelionZ>
MikeFair: though i think i can still dockerize this solution
<AphelionZ>
I'd really like to see if o can generalize this "persistent peer" model to be useful to any ipfs/orbitdb based app
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<MikeFair_>
AphelionZ, but I'm still wondering how that solves the orbitdb address propogation issue
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<MikeFair>
So you ran two nodes on your machine, one in node, and one in the browser
<MikeFair>
or, did you only run the node.js one and have the browser submit commands to that node.js server
<AphelionZ>
The node.js server IS the node that the browser is connected to
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<AphelionZ>
Im more or less just messing with the nesting of the elements
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<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], A telephone call is a link between end points; the manifest describing the call represents the content identifiable "link" or "call" session
<AphelionZ>
think NSA metadata ;) ;) ;)
<Kythyria[m]>
MikeFair: True.
<Kythyria[m]>
But you're still going to use that manifest by doing something not very content-addressed at all.
<MikeFair>
AphelionZ, hehe - I'm just being greedy to steal what you did to solve _my_ similar problem case
<AphelionZ>
yeah that's fine
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], Right, like DNS is used to do something very not DNS like at all
<AphelionZ>
I'm gonna write a blog post about all this tonight I think
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], naming things is hard :)
<AphelionZ>
aw, RIP Ursula K Le Guin
<AphelionZ>
:(
<AphelionZ>
bummer
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], I should naming things in a way we can easily share is a challenge; and CAS represents a great hope :)
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<MikeFair>
AphelionZ, if you publish, I will read. ;)
<AphelionZ>
making the initial connection is easy
<AphelionZ>
MAINTAINING the connection between specific peers?
<AphelionZ>
not so easy
<MikeFair>
AphelionZ, so even pubsub doesn't route on js-ipfs?
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<AphelionZ>
huh?
<MikeFair>
AphelionZ, oh, you're talking direct end points as browsers come and go, not OrbitDB comms
<AphelionZ>
So, I think it's a fairly safe assumption that if two peers are connected directly (not via swarm) then OrbitDB comms will work
<AphelionZ>
(as long as the have pubsub enabled ofc)
<MikeFair>
I noticed you had to explicitly enable experimental pubsub; is that boilerplate example code or could it be that our comms problems are that we didn't do that?
<AphelionZ>
I would *definitely* try that
<MikeFair>
I don't know if it was done or not
<MikeFair>
So have this thought baking regarding "publishing things to named paths" and want to get some feedback; the challenge I'm working with is "Make something like URLs work over IPFS" -- aka Named addressing versus content addressing
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<MikeFair>
The basic idea is use DNS to provide the answer to who can control the "named string space" under the "domain.dom" realm
<MikeFair>
Whoever controls ipfs.io, also controls all named paths using "ipfs.io" in the domain section of the URL
<MikeFair>
When I go to look up "ipfs://ipfs.io/some/path/file.html" that string gets HASHed to a CID as the "Content" and the data at that CID is retieved, which is basically just like an IPNS entry
<MikeFair>
The data at that CID redirects to the real CID I'm looking for
<MikeFair>
The challenge is controlling who can update that CID, and that's where DNS comes in
<MikeFair>
the command would look something like: ipfs publish --key ipfs.io_key --path "ipfs://ipfs.io/some/path/file.html" IPFS_CID_HASH
<MikeFair>
The system would look to the DNS entries for ipfs.io to fetch the public key for who has permission to update the link at that path
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<JCaesar>
I still don't get what you want to gain from that. Have a dns cluster and some clients with TSIG keys, they can update their respective subdomains.
<MikeFair>
Because we don't fetch "path.some.ipfs.io/file.html"
<MikeFair>
and paths have spaces and & and ' and . and ,
<MikeFair>
I guess you could canonacilize it somehow into something DNS can control
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<MikeFair>
Aside from the "Changing content" problem, this also fits really well in the DAG
<MikeFair>
using IPLD
<JCaesar>
What we fetch is entirely up to your application. Why do you want to fetch ipfs.io/some/path/file.html?
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<MikeFair>
depends on the application I'm using at the time; this is just naming the resources
<MikeFair>
I could browse it, edit, compute its checksum
<MikeFair>
scrape it
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<MikeFair>
I don't know why, we just want whatever the owner of ipfs.io thought we should get when we do that
<MikeFair>
(Using a CAS compatible mechanism)
<AphelionZ>
MikeFair: what about some sort of nginx reverse-proxy-type system that resolves those named paths
<MikeFair>
AphelionZ, that's exactly what this is, so the question is how do we decide who gets to update what the reverse proxy points at
<MikeFair>
I'm just using the CID of the name itself as the nginx address
<AphelionZ>
Ahh i see
<MikeFair>
The lookup resolves just fine
<AphelionZ>
First come first serve! ;)
<MikeFair>
the problem is updating that node
<MikeFair>
hehe
<MikeFair>
IPNS did it by restricting the private key to the public key's CID
<MikeFair>
So my thought was, what if that same key could update the entire "ipfs.io" pathing scope
<MikeFair>
the DNS entry points to a public key
<MikeFair>
that private key can then use all CIDs that use "ipfs.io" as the domain portion of the path
<MikeFair>
as ipns entries
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<MikeFair>
s/use/update
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<MikeFair>
It can even be in a separated "resolver" namespace
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<MikeFair>
It doesn't have to share CIDS with the /ipfs/ namespace at all
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<MikeFair>
JCaesar, tbh, I just really want an "on ipfs" mechanism for translating arbitrary strings to arbitrary addresses that has some kind of federated sanity to it. :)
<JCaesar>
Agreed, that would be nice to have.
<MikeFair>
Using DNS as the namespace broker for just the domain name portion seems like a great compromise between the chaos of a decentralized p2p using Last Write Wins and total centralization
<MikeFair>
Or said another way, IPFS by itself can't/won't provide the authority for who owns/controls a namespace; that remains with DNS. And IPFS then has an arbitrary name translation mechanism working as I described using the HASH of the string itself as an IPNS-like entry (a redirector)
<JCaesar>
Yeah, that's the part where it starts sounding Ad-Hoc to me… I don't kow.
<MikeFair>
This would be restricted to the "DNS" namespace
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<MikeFair>
within the ipfs ecosystem ; (i.e. the CIDS listed would be listed like /dns/HASH)
<MikeFair>
JCaesar, I can appreciate that, I think it's about as "ad-hoc" as ipns itself is
<MikeFair>
JCaesar, I think it's merely expanding the "scope" of how many CID entries that private can control
<MikeFair>
private key
<MikeFair>
I don't have a more reasonable mechanism; I'd prefer not to expand the number of "writers" to the DNS databases
<MikeFair>
But I think updating DNS with the public keys of who the authorized writers are seems like a reasonable compromise
<MikeFair>
Flexible enough to change out if need be, static enough to make caching useful
<MikeFair>
JCaesar, If/when you can identify which part is giving you the heebie/jeebies, let me know and I'll see if I can work on that aspect of the design
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<MikeFair>
(or what qualities you think you'd prefer in a system -- I'd love to take the feedback under consideration)
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<deltab>
James_Epp: maybe you can set a nickname for your own profile, such as "me" or "self", and use that instead
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<AphelionZ>
MikeFair: I'm also psyched to circle back and apply everything I learned to the Interplanetary Pastebin too lol
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<TrUsT_n1>
Question about having a writable gateway
<TrUsT_n1>
Does having a writable gateway enable the public to pin items to your gateway?
<AphelionZ>
TrUsT_n1: if you mean enabling POST PUT and DELETE on your gateway, then no
<AphelionZ>
TrUsT_n1: if you mean "exposing your REST API to the public" then its game on, hoss
<TrUsT_n1>
AphelionZ: So basicly the public would just fill up the cache until garbage collection nothing pinned.
<AphelionZ>
correct
<AphelionZ>
it falls into the realm of 'probably fine but also a vaguely non-awesome idea'
<TrUsT_n1>
I was thinking about using it for a local version of hardbin. Also trying to get a local version of Orbit Chat working.
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<AphelionZ>
locally its probably fine
<TrUsT_n1>
AphelionZ: On a laptop may be ok, not on a VPS would be another question.
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<AphelionZ>
ya
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<sid226>
Hi!!
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<sid226>
does IPFS node do garbage collection automatically
<sid226>
??
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<MikeFair>
sid226, if you mean expiring from the cache then yes
<sid226>
i meant if we dont run 'ipfs repo gc' does the node do it impplicitly
<sid226>
?
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<voker57>
sid226: yes
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<make>
Hi there i'm currently researching topics for a bachelor's thesis. My prof is interested in hosting key-value/json stores like redis (or even mongo) on ipfs. Can any of you tell me if this is remotely possible?
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<make>
It sounds like distributed database is a use case ipfs wants to tackle, but as far as I understand right now it's only possible to save static files on it, right?
<r0kk3rz>
make: you can make linked datastructures as well
<r0kk3rz>
make: you should look at orbit-db as an example of a database on ipfs
<make>
r0kk3rz: Thx, i really appreciate the help! This puts me in the right direction :)
<r0kk3rz>
in general content addressing doesnt really help things in a database type situation
<r0kk3rz>
especially if that database is changing a lot
<make>
Yes that's what i thought, cause the content is changing, especially with a web app databse
<r0kk3rz>
yeah so things like append only datastructures work a bit better
<make>
My prof takes part in a federal funded project which researches how to make studying in college better for part-time workers and parents. Most of his software he is developing is meant for the browser and a serverless web. For sum use cases he has to run a redis and mongo server. So he is really interested if it's possible to actually "host" thoses services on the distributed web, thus making the whole project
<make>
completely independet. OrbitDB sounds like it could "replace" redis for his use cases.
<r0kk3rz>
yeah another interesting topic is citizen science with providing access to large scientific data sets
<r0kk3rz>
make: talk to haad if you want more details about orbit-db
<make>
The spec will help me understand ipfs a little better. You definitely put me on the right path, so thank you a lot! I think I'll be around here for a while now ^^.
<make>
Thanks, i will. First i will read up on that in a little bit more detail ;)
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<otremblay>
Hi! Is it possible to connect both to a private and public swarm? Say that I host a private swarm somewhere, that a few home computers connect to exclusively, but still want to have access to the publicly available stuff along with my private things?
<EnricoFasoli[m]>
your private stuff would be available to the public that way
<r0kk3rz>
that would be tricky
<r0kk3rz>
you'd have to have multiple datastores, which i dont think is possible
<EnricoFasoli[m]>
I mean someone has to either read the DHT or know the hash to get your private files, but if you have a node with private data connected to the public network then you also have this problem
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<r0kk3rz>
unless ipfs can delineate between the public and private swarms, which i dont think it does at the moment
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<otremblay>
Thanks! I was thinking that an alternate strategy could be to have two ipfs daemons running under two different user accounts
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<otremblay>
Basically having the public one mounted at /ipfs and /ipns, and have my private stuff mounted in my home directory, and then fiddle a bit with the config somehow
<r0kk3rz>
yeah they'd probably fight over the same ports though
<otremblay>
Can't I configure those?
<otremblay>
There's the --api option that I could use to talk to the public one, and I could then keep the default ports for my private installation (which in my case would be the most useful, I believe)
<sethetter>
Can someone tell me what DHT stands for? Been searching around and it's only ever referred to as it's acronym
<r0kk3rz>
distributed hash table
<sethetter>
r0kk3rz: thank you!
<sethetter>
Maps content hashes to their locations?
<EnricoFasoli[m]>
AphelionZ: I really liked the post. Please write more :)
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<AphelionZ>
EnricoFasoli[m]: I'm just getting started baby
<AphelionZ>
thank you :)
<Icefoz>
AphelionZ: That's literally the most informative thing I've ever read about actually using IPFS.
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<AphelionZ>
wow!
<AphelionZ>
hahah thank you
<AphelionZ>
I'll get the solution posted today then
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<AphelionZ>
Is "server" like a four-letter-word now?
<AphelionZ>
Are all servers now bad
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<AphelionZ>
Im mostly joking but i have been thinking of the node scripts im writing to be more like clients that happen to live on a sever or something
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<tarrence>
I'm having an issue serving a file from my local node as was hoping someone could help
<tarrence>
If I tail the logs locally, I can see the request from the gateway
<tarrence>
For some reason it takes really long to transfer the file, the gateway request hangs for a few minute
<tarrence>
Question is what could be causing this delay?
<whyrusleeping>
tarrence: hrm... thats a pretty small file
<whyrusleeping>
could be the gateways having trouble connecting to your node
<whyrusleeping>
you say you see the request in your logs locally, when do you see that?
<whyrusleeping>
is it before or after the gateway hangs loading your content?
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<tarrence>
After I make the request through ipfs.io I see the request in the logs, then nothing for a couple mins, and then it seems to serve the request and there is a lot of activity
<tarrence>
I see this same issue when requesting content from a browser node, so its not just ipfs.io
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<whyrusleeping>
AphelionZ: great post, cant wait to read the rest of it :)
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<AphelionZ>
thanks whyrusleeping
<AphelionZ>
im pretty close...
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<whyrusleeping>
AphelionZ: also, youre in cambridge? I *think* a few of us (not me) might be going to MIT for a meetup or something. Don't quote me though, i've only heard vague rumors at this point
<AphelionZ>
ooooh
<AphelionZ>
PM me if those rumors substantiate
<whyrusleeping>
for sure
<AphelionZ>
I can show you the thing we're actually working on
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<AphelionZ>
please do leave any feedback. I'm gonna formally publish it on a non-dev URL and post it to HN in a couple days
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<AphelionZ>
or maybe tonight, i dunno. it depends on what kinda feedback I get
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<victorbjelkholm>
AphelionZ: quick note, EXPERIMENTAL.pubsub should be a boolean, not a string. But I think it works before we're not checking for true/false but truthy/falsy
<AphelionZ>
victorbjelkholm: I will update in the post and in my real code, thanks :)
<victorbjelkholm>
otherwise a nice article, good work :)
<AphelionZ>
thanks!
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<AphelionZ>
victorbjelkholm: if I put this in my post, would it be accurate?