<fiatjaf>
on libp2p, how am I supposed to get the peers public keys? when they're discovered the public key doesn't come, only the id.
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<gozala>
fiatjaf: is there shorter summary that’s a long video
<gozala>
if it’s domenic’s reasoning about why node streams are crap, I’m aware
<fiatjaf>
gozala: it is
<fiatjaf>
and I don't understand it
<gozala>
fiatjaf: you mean you don’t understand why they’re not great ?
<fiatjaf>
gozala: yes
<fiatjaf>
but I like the pull-streams better, they produce clearer code
<gozala>
fiatjaf: well I have millions of reasons why they aren’t great, but I would rather not go into them. I have being trying to convince node folks from the very first version without much success and I’m really tired of that
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<fiatjaf>
hahah
<fiatjaf>
but you think whatwg streams are good?
<gozala>
fiatjaf: Funny enough back in the time I have being proposing something similar to pull streams at the second jsconf2
<gozala>
fiatjaf: whatwg streams aren’t ideal, but they are better than node streams
<gozala>
and more importantly they are standard now
<gozala>
and are designed to work with async iteration
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<gozala>
async functions and are implemented in chrome, safari and we have not yet enabled implementation in firefox
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<dionysus69>
hey
<dionysus69>
i just inited ipfs
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<dionysus69>
will it download data now ? or where is the data stored in general
<dionysus69>
I just added a hello world file to the ipfs, where is it stored physically?
<voker57>
dionysus69: ipfs does not store any data you don't order it to. if you added file, it's stored on your hard drive
<dionysus69>
so how do I "send it into cloud"?
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<dionysus69>
and even then, how are are the parts of the data stored, and what if one node goes down that holds part of the data
<voker57>
ipfs does not work that way. It's like torrents: if you want somebody else to store your file, they'll have to download it
<dionysus69>
ohh
<dionysus69>
I thought it was like raid storage but online
<dionysus69>
guess thing like that still doesnt exist xD
<voker57>
well, free storage can exist only in ideal world
<voker57>
filecoin is being developed to use IPFS to provide distributed competitive online storage network
<dionysus69>
hmm
<dionysus69>
but if filecoin uses ipfs that means all files need to be fully downloaded on all nodes
<dionysus69>
which is extremely inefficient isn't it?
<dionysus69>
voker57: sorry for ping but
<dionysus69>
whatever I said though, isn't it a good idea? :D
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<dionysus69>
to have like spread out, "really distributed" storage
<dionysus69>
so parts of each file would be stored on multiple locations
<r0kk3rz>
eh, it is and it isnt
<dionysus69>
and everyone who would have file online would pay, and node owners/ storage providers would get paid
<r0kk3rz>
thats basically filecoin
<dionysus69>
but it's not really distributed if every copy of file is fully downloaded on each coin
<dionysus69>
that's the hardest part of the system
<dionysus69>
each node*
<dionysus69>
so let's say there is 100gb digital data in the existence in the world
<dionysus69>
and there are 100 nodes
<dionysus69>
in order to make that 100gb distributed, it would take 10,000 gb on all 100 nodes
<JCaesar>
wat?
<r0kk3rz>
derp
<voker57>
dionysus69: filecoin does not require that
<r0kk3rz>
if you want full redundancy, then yes there will be a lot of duplication
<dionysus69>
whereas, what I am saying could save at least 50%, if have data parity like in raid 5 perhaps
<r0kk3rz>
RAID strategies are well known
<voker57>
in it you basically can store anything you like and recieive currency from whoever paid for storing that data
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<dionysus69>
so if that's filecoin
<dionysus69>
so what's the incentive in ipfs to store someone's data?
<r0kk3rz>
in ipfs, nothing
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<dionysus69>
ok so i guess it's just the infrastructure project xD
<JCaesar>
Well, you have the data. In case you're interested in it. It can't disappear, like stuff on normal web pages.
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<dionysus69>
how can it not disappear? someone else also needs to have it then right?
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<dionysus69>
what if you are the only one who has it and is there way to know how many nodes have a certain file?
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<r0kk3rz>
yeah its more of an infrastructure type thing, which you can use to make a bunch of interesting higher order constructions
<JCaesar>
dionysus69: There's ipfs dht findprovs, but I think you can lie about whether you have a file.
<dionysus69>
hmm
<JCaesar>
But I'm having a hard time following "how can it not disappear?". If you store the data, why would it disappear for you?
<dionysus69>
we need someone like Linus Torvalds for this, to make a kernel for one cloud to rule them all
<dionysus69>
so it automatically controls redundancy, while minimizing space used
<r0kk3rz>
imo you shouldnt frame things as permanence, because its confusing :)
<dionysus69>
meaning?
<r0kk3rz>
stuff is content addressed, and so it doesnt matter *what* hosts the content
<dionysus69>
ye but access speed matters too
<r0kk3rz>
thats where the torrent like behaviour comes in
<dionysus69>
if that content is on last remaining node in bangladesh, people will take lots of time accessing it. plus if that last guy deletes that data it's gone, there is need for a dummy AI at least to control those stuff
<r0kk3rz>
not quite
<r0kk3rz>
if people are downloading that data, it will be added to their IPFS node
<r0kk3rz>
if nobody cares about that data, then nobody cares
<dionysus69>
what if they download and delete, leechers?
<dionysus69>
the point is for the system to maintain at least one copy
<r0kk3rz>
thats not what ipfs does
<dionysus69>
ye I know :D
<dionysus69>
I am saying it would be cool if it did :D
<fiatjaf>
no, it wouldn't
<r0kk3rz>
it would be tough to pull off
<r0kk3rz>
because there isnt 'one' ipfs network
<fiatjaf>
it's not cool for an external entity to control your computer
<muvlon>
^
<dionysus69>
it could then be used as a worldwide storage, and world would basically have a single disk
<muvlon>
you can't force anybody to store your shit
<r0kk3rz>
and everyones drives would be filled with porn :D
<dionysus69>
there comes in the paying / receving reward thing I mentioned already
<r0kk3rz>
if you want to pay people to store stuff, thats filecoin
<muvlon>
maybe there could be something where people can volunteer their storage
<dionysus69>
well I dont think people would pay to have their porn in ipfs, their own partitions would be enough for that :D
<fiatjaf>
I guess the question is: in filecoin, what happens if you pay someone to store your stuff, but then he deletes it?
<r0kk3rz>
if you want to serve stuff, get a VPS and stick ipfs on it like you would a webserver
<muvlon>
fiatjaf, they don't get paid
<dionysus69>
r0kk3rz: ye the point is then it would be cheaper
<dionysus69>
no one would be forced to go out and buy hard drive anymore
<dionysus69>
because they have internet connection
<r0kk3rz>
huh?
<dionysus69>
whoever has a spare 3tb drive sitting vacantly like me, I would rent it to others xD
<lupine>
this is a thing with freenet
<lupine>
it's packed chock-full of child porn
<lupine>
humans suck
<r0kk3rz>
indeed
<fiatjaf>
dionysus69: you can already use third-party services as your personal internet-hard-drives.
<lupine>
it's ok if you can at least blacklist content when you're made aware of it, but freenet doesn't even let you do that
<r0kk3rz>
dionysus69: anyway i dont think you're talking about anything new here, you should read up on filecoin
<dionysus69>
hmm ok will do xD
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<metaphysician>
Is there a project to mirror and archive Twitter?
<r0kk3rz>
for what purpose?
<metaphysician>
Like Wikipedia on ipfs
<NullbutC00L>
muvion for what I understood in filecoin if u don't serve the content stored you don't just not get paid, you actually lose the stake you putted inline that compromised you to that storage, making it more reliable since people not only don't get paid but they also lose something if they fail
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<lgierth>
gozala: i think david meant the files API. it's only called mfs in the internals (= mutable filesystem)
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<Poeticode>
huh, thought my 512mb RAM VPS was doing great after lowering the connections to 100, until I realized apache crashed after a while :P gonna have to see what caused that
<JCaesar>
The memory murderer?
<Poeticode>
@ convo about storing other people's content... is the content on IPFS encrypted? Or would you legit have sketchy stuff on your box if you host? o_O
<JCaesar>
You will legitly have sketchy stuff.
<JCaesar>
I remember reading talk about block lists and content filters which you could choose to follow or ignore.
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<Poeticode>
hmm I know Siacoin encrypts & distributes your files in 40mb blocks to get around that. But I'm guessing that's not very performant, and a waste of space if you're just hosting kb files
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<glooky>
hello
<glooky>
Has anybody even ran IPFS in WSL?
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<JCaesar>
cwahlers: Meh, that guide is nice, but it recommends using the peer id with ipns… Even ipfs.io doesn't do that…
<Poeticode>
creationix: nginx is probably better, but my VPS was already running Apache Virtualhosts, so I had it forward to the port my ipfs daemon was running on, except for a directory I made specifically for the Let's Encrypt webroot test
<cwahlers>
JCaesar: nobody's perfect. what else should be used?
<cwahlers>
(i believe i got that info from ipfs.io but i might have made a mistake)
<JCaesar>
The /ipfs/… path directly.
<JCaesar>
ipfs.io does that.
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<cwahlers>
for the dnslink?
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<JCaesar>
Yes.
<JCaesar>
dig -tTXT ipfs.io
<JCaesar>
Interestingly, they don't even put it in _dnslink.ipfs.io
<lgierth>
both this ^ and using the peerID are absolutely fine
<JCaesar>
Working, yes.
<JCaesar>
But the speed..
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<JCaesar>
If it's the peer ID of the node that's serving the site… maybe. But then what's the point.
<cwahlers>
then i need to update dns records every time i update the site though
<JCaesar>
Yes.
<cwahlers>
technically, what's the advantage?
<JCaesar>
You don't feel any delay on the first page hit with /ipns/Qm…?
<JCaesar>
As in… a 20 or so seconds delay.
<cwahlers>
yes, i do. is that better with /ipfs/Qm..? like, why is that?
<cwahlers>
(sorry, stupid questions)
<lgierth>
IPNS hasn't been optimized enough yet. things are better than earlier, but not perfect yet. for /ipfs there's no additional lookups (just the dns lookup)
<lgierth>
not at all stupid questions
<cwahlers>
cool, that's good to know. i'll add that to the doc. thanks JCaesar lgierth!
<JCaesar>
cwahlers: And thank you for writing that guide, I wanted to do that…
<JCaesar>
(Wait. Who wrote that?)
<cwahlers>
i collected it from multiple sources
<cwahlers>
did it mainly for myself
<JCaesar>
I wonder if digitalocean supports updating zones with nsupdate/TSIG keys…
<lgierth>
you can now have ipfs:// redirect to http://
<lgierth>
step in the right direction
<lgierth>
next we need programmable handlers for custom schemes, i.e. have a js function respond to ipfs://
<fiatjaf>
is that deployed?
<fiatjaf>
on firefox nightly or whatever?
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<lgierth>
yeah nightly
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<lgierth>
ipfs-companion currently uses a hack where ipfs:// turns into a search, and then we intercept the http:// search request
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<fiatjaf>
is it possible to set up a js function as a handler for some protocol on firefox? even if not ipfs://?
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<lgierth>
no, not currently
<creationix>
lgierth: fiatjaf: what about service workers?
<creationix>
I'm pretty sure you can combine those with the custom protocol redirects
<creationix>
the only problem I had is the service worker still can't speak p2p protocols, it still needs some sort of websocket or https gateway to access the full network
<fiatjaf>
well, it can access a local instance of go-ipfs
<lgierth>
yeah :/ it'd still be a hack with tons of edge cases
<fiatjaf>
that makes ipfs-companion useless? :P
<lgierth>
no
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<lgierth>
it still lets you enter ipfs:// and ipns:// URLs and sends you to the requested content, either at ipfs.io, or localhost, or a gateway of your choice
<lgierth>
and it exposes (or will expose soon) a window.ipfs API to content pages, backed by js-ipfs in the addon, or go-ipfs on localhost, or an api running anywhere
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<creationix>
there is no way to keep the pretty ipfs:// url in the bar is there?
<creationix>
I've always seen the browsers redirect to http
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<lgierth>
not currently
<lgierth>
we need roughly the same API as electron and muon have
<creationix>
beaker does it for dat, but they use more low-level electron/chromium APIs
<lgierth>
yeah same for brave
<creationix>
does brave support custom protocols in the url bar?
<lgierth>
and see ipld/ipld readme for more links to impls
<creationix>
interesting
<creationix>
ok, harder question. What about remote APIs, not just publishing and retrieving data?
<creationix>
suppose I have a smart-lock at my house and a server that speaks the zigby wireless protocol. I want to be able to query the lock's status and/or change the state from outside my house using p2p protocols
<creationix>
the server could publish the lock's state (and other devices) as a content addressable graph, but how would I send commands from authorized clients
<lgierth>
i'm not familiar with zigby, but i suppose there will be *something* that bridges the p2p network to the zigby device
<lgierth>
that something would e.g. look for signed messages on a specific pubsub topic
<creationix>
right, just assume the server can control the zigby device
<lgierth>
or look for updates to an IPNS key (there can be multiple writers)
<creationix>
hmm, I don't know about IPNS and pub/sub
<lgierth>
if multiple writers update the state independently and collaboratively, a CRDT can be used (via y.js, as peerpad does)
<creationix>
yeah, I'm less concerned about that part
<creationix>
but y.js does look neat
<creationix>
my main concern is being able to manage authorized clients and have those authorized clients send me requests
<creationix>
pubsub might be enough to make that work
<creationix>
the topic can be the hash of the server's public key (aka discovery key in dat terminlogy). The message itself can be encrypted and signed so that both client and server are mutually authenticated
<creationix>
does ipfs handle all the connectivity for pub/sub? Is there a DHT? Does it work offline using multicast on the lan?
<lgierth>
bonus, you can also use pubsub from a regular webapp through js-ipfs
<lgierth>
no multicast pubsub yet
<lgierth>
i.e. you can only publish if you have peers
<creationix>
that's fine, I just mean discover peers using multicast
<lgierth>
yeah via mdns :) and there's a PR somewhere for IP link-local broadcast too
<creationix>
so if my lan is disconnected from the internet, can a publish from one machine be seen by another machine on the lan (assuming they know eachother's public keys)
<lgierth>
yeah
<lgierth>
they only need to know the topic
<creationix>
great, but to confirm, is it automatic as part of libp2p or some other layer?
<lgierth>
pubsub is a libp2p concern, yes, and ipfs exposes it too (and makes use of it)
<lgierth>
if you take away libp2p, ipfs is just a a) set of filesystem data structures, b) the block exchange, c) the on-disk repo, d) mutable names (= ipns)
<creationix>
that's a neat protocol, I like the self-healing and self-optimizing gossip meshes
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