<MikeFair>
jesse22, honestly I don't know how go cross compiles isn't it usually something like cpu_arch
<jesse22>
MikeFair: usually it's just GOOS and GOARCH
<MikeFair>
ahh
<MikeFair>
Why not have go do it then?
<jesse22>
but the Makefiles are fancy and I want to do it the supported way - whatever way the official dist. does it
<MikeFair>
go build seems sufficient for me
<Elon_Satoshi[m]>
whyn'tve*
<MikeFair>
When I read the docs for manual windows installs (that can't use the makefiles) they aren't doing a whole lot
<MikeFair>
but I'm only building ipfs
<MikeFair>
but I'm only building ipfs.exe
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<jesse22>
hmm it fails wanting to build things in my $GOROOT - which the building user doesn't have permission to
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<MikeFair>
jesse22, I always thought GOROOT was Go's homedir and GOPATH is where our stuff should go
<MikeFair>
(both having almost the same structure)
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* MikeFair
lacks much GoFoo
<MikeFair>
err Go Fu ;)
<jesse22>
sure, yeah. but why is the ipfs build process trying to write things to a place it shouldn't?
<jesse22>
(or at least, has no permission to)
<MikeFair>
I think it's trying to build something that it thinks needs to be built
<MikeFair>
and that library is located in a place the user can't write
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<jesse22>
ah i see, the build specified -i which means to install packages - which writes them back to GOROOT
<jesse22>
omit that in mk/golang.mk and you're good (albeit slower compile)
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<MikeFair>
lgierth, whyrusleeping : Oh I have a Q! I recently successfully rebuilt go-ipfs --- but it's now API version 0.4.14-dev and the daemon won't connect to any peers
<MikeFair>
Any advice?
<MikeFair>
Actually, nm
<MikeFair>
I think I know what I did wrong ; I messed with the resolver code and probably broke something
<whyrusleeping>
MikeFair: you could be running into a bug we're in the process of fixing
<MikeFair>
okay yeah; I rolled back all my changes (git reset --hard HEAD) and rebuilt ; same issue, no peers
<whyrusleeping>
What OS?
<lgierth>
we have a bug where we can't connect to anyone?
<lgierth>
these are the kinds of bugs i'd like to know about lol, ipfs.io is running the latest master
<whyrusleeping>
i'm aware of one thats been fixed, it only applied to windows as far as I know
<MikeFair>
Windows 7
<whyrusleeping>
I've been waiting for stebalien to bubble the updates through, but I guess I might have to do it
<lgierth>
aah ok
<whyrusleeping>
MikeFair: yeah, you might have to use 0.4.13 for now
* MikeFair
muses "yeah but I lack the `go get` Fu to keep it there
<stebalien>
whyrusleeping: have you merged the thing?
<whyrusleeping>
I pushed an update to the cmds lib PR
<whyrusleeping>
is everything else ready to go?
<MikeFair>
And I know you guys have answered this before, but I just ran into this use case myself and couldn't remember the answers
<MikeFair>
If I want to add something to ipfs, and then see it through the go console daemon; what are my options?
<MikeFair>
err add something using js-ipfs
<whyrusleeping>
stebalien: I think something might not be pinned
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<stebalien>
All the things are pinned.
<stebalien>
whyrusleeping: as far as I can tell, at least. I just pinned all refs of `gx deps -r -q | sort -u`.
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<stebalien>
whyrusleeping: bubbling...
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<Taoki>
So I'm trying to understand something basic for a while: What exactly is js-ipfs? More specifically: Is it only a JavaScript API so that scripts on websites can interact with the IPFS daemon running on the system, or does it also contain its own IPFS daemon that lets a browser use the network without an ipfs.exe (go-ipfs) running in the background?
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<Taoki>
Is it correct to assume that go-ipfs is the C++ implementation while js-ipfs is the JavaScript implementation?
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<Icefoz>
Taoki: ...go-ipfs is the Go implementation
<Icefoz>
And IIRC the js-ipfs implementation is a full IPFS node but is not as complete and has some limitations I'm not familiar with.
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<Taoki>
Hmmm. I need to understand the exact difference then.
<Taoki>
What does Go do differently?
<Icefoz>
I don't know the exact difference alas.
<MikeFair>
Taoki, js-ipfs is kind of both
<MikeFair>
There is a way to use js-ipfs to conenct to your local node, and it won't work without it
<MikeFair>
But it also has some websockets Fu to implement it's own ipfs "Stack" as it were
<Taoki>
Ok. So you need ipfs.exe from go-ipfs, for js-ipfs to work with
<MikeFair>
If you use that "mode"
<Taoki>
Because I believe someone sad that js-ipfs will soon have its own node. So for instance, in brave browser, IPFS works fully builtin.
<Taoki>
Yeah
<MikeFair>
That's currently the most "feature complete" mode
<Taoki>
So js-ipfs has two modes: Either it runs its own JavaScript implementation of the daemon, or connects to the ipfs.exe process on the system. Is that correct?
<MikeFair>
yes
<Taoki>
But in both cases, full IPFS functionality is supported.
<Taoki>
Awesome, thanks!
<MikeFair>
You pick it at the time you instantiate the Ipfs package
<MikeFair>
well that last part, no
<Taoki>
Need to learn these things if I'm to be helpful. Hoping I can at least explain to others how it all works and get them to see the benefit of the protocol.
<MikeFair>
full IPFS functionality is not supported in both cases
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* Taoki
kinda poked both Mozilla and organizations like EFF / FightForTheFuture / OpenMedia about it already :P
<MikeFair>
That's why js-ipfs comes up so much on this channel
<Taoki>
Yeah, I know some things aren't implemented yet.
<MikeFair>
okay, great, just wanted to make sure your exepctations are proper ;)
<Taoki>
I'm eager for the ability of website JavaScript to edit IPNS domains, finally allowing dynamic websites.
<MikeFair>
As many are; you can do that through a daemon based connection
<Taoki>
Once that happens, dynamic websites with user support can finally be a thing
* MikeFair
did.
<Taoki>
I heard it's not possible quite yet
<Taoki>
Really? Editing IPNS from website scripts?
<MikeFair>
I'll have to double check, it was a while ago, but yeah
<Taoki>
Interesting. There's an open bug explaining what would need to be fixed first for it to work.
<MikeFair>
If by editing you mean "Publish an update to the /ipfs" reference of an IPNS enry, then I'm pretty we got that working
<MikeFair>
I think that's for the "local browser node"
<Taoki>
yeah... basically automating the "ipns name" console command
<Taoki>
So if you update your profile's settings, you can point an IPNS to the new settings file (a json, cfg, whatever)
<MikeFair>
Ironically, you have some "secrets to protect" though
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<MikeFair>
The only thing I've been able to come with so far is that you store a "secret seed" in ipfs
<MikeFair>
That address is part of your config, pointed to by ipns
<MikeFair>
The data in that block, combined with your passphrase, can then generate the keypair needed to update your ipns block
<MikeFair>
The data in that block, combined with your passphrase, can then generate the keypair needed to update your ipns reference
* MikeFair
forgets you can't edit IRC channels. ;)
<MikeFair>
otherwise you need some other can't of file storage to pass your ipns profile around
<MikeFair>
s/can't/kind
<Taoki>
Interesting
<Taoki>
One issue was that, even if you can edit IPNS from scripts, you need the private key (equivalent for account password to do it).
<Taoki>
So even if you can edit your own profile, no one else can make changes.
<Taoki>
Which sucks because it makes stuff like leaving comments or liking posts impossible.
<Taoki>
I mean you can like them on your account, but that won't reflect on the poster's account... because they would need to update it with their private key.
<MikeFair>
that's why I offered whay I did
<Taoki>
Still haven't found a way around this. In my mind that is, didn't begin coding it yet.
<MikeFair>
You don't need to actually store the keys
<Taoki>
Yeah if that exists, I need to learn how it works.
<Taoki>
Well my system will be more like independent profiles (sites) communicating through one another using an interface.
<MikeFair>
You need to store something that lets you recreate the keys
<MikeFair>
Mine too
<Taoki>
Awesome :D
<MikeFair>
I'm linking lots of ipns addressed profiles together via IPLD
* Taoki
was planning on kinda re-creating Facebook in IPFS as a decentralized thingie
<MikeFair>
well we're using IPFS file atm, but the idea is to go IPLD
<Taoki>
Another issue is search: The system must maintain a list of all profiles made with the service, and scan them all.
<MikeFair>
That's why I was using IPLD ; and a "decentralized directory system"
<Taoki>
Json is what I've thought of using to store profile settings... profiles would literally just be json files, containing settings and links to other files.
<Taoki>
Wow, there's that too?
<Taoki>
I thought directories are hashed like files
<MikeFair>
not exactly
<Taoki>
So you can have files in a directory change, but the reference to the directory stay constant? And you can get those files by a constant filename too?
<MikeFair>
There's "massive groups of people that honor a a common authority/ruleset"
<Taoki>
Hmmm
<MikeFair>
Yes and no
<Stskeeps>
Taoki, i presume you've discovered CRDTs already?
<Stskeeps>
as well
<Taoki>
Don't think I know what those are either.
<Taoki>
Still new(ish) but learning more with time
<MikeFair>
It's not a native feature; and "changing content" is a bit of a "dicussion topic" but I'm promoting the concept of "multirooted hierarchies"
<Taoki>
I use Git all the time for dev stuff. Knowing how it works fully is a little more complicated.
<Taoki>
Yeah, changing content will be hard to do properly. But I can see many ways to.
<MikeFair>
So what you have is a whole series of IPNS entries
<deltab>
in short, you can rebuild a directory taking into account changes; then you just have to publish the hash of the updated directory
<MikeFair>
One of them is "the directory root"
* Taoki
nods
<MikeFair>
deltab, But that doesn't let the directories change on their own; this does
<MikeFair>
deltab, You only need to republish when you change the list of directories
<deltab>
MikeFair: right
<MikeFair>
the way ipns is now, you have to republish on every change
<MikeFair>
regardless of depth
<Taoki>
My plan was to have one IPNS per profile: That pointing to their json file, which contains the profile settings. Other files are just in the network, such as the texts and references of post and avatars and so on... they just need to be referenced.
<Taoki>
Yes
<Taoki>
That's a problem: If you make a new post on your profile or update your settings, you need to manually run "ipns name" to reference the new settings file. Once this can be automated, we're in business.
<MikeFair>
Taoki, Right, so instead of search, publish another IPNS "directory" that has json files with all those IPNS addresses
<MikeFair>
Taoki, You can put that in "IPLD"
<Taoki>
Still need to work around only the owner being able to edit their page. So that others can make some changes without their json IPNS private key, like leave comments.
<Taoki>
Interesting
<MikeFair>
Taoki, You should check out IPLD
<Taoki>
Will tomorrow, late and I need to run now.
* MikeFair
nods.
<deltab>
see also federated wiki, and indieweb
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<Taoki>
The problem though is that you can edit a profile at all, like say to leave a comment on a post, you can edit the contents of that post in any way (as you're generating a new json file).
<MikeFair>
There's a couple distributed p2p Facbooke clones running around (diaspora being the oldest I can think of)
<Taoki>
No central authority checks HOW you change that file: If you can edit an user's settings to include having left a comment, you can erase them entirely or take full control of their profile.
<MikeFair>
Taoki, I can think of ways to do it; but you also want spam controls right?
<Taoki>
I'd be using tag and user blacklists. Those are separate but easy.
<MikeFair>
Taoki, If you give up "preventing" anyone from posting (everyone can post) ; or you have to explicitly "whitelist" who can post, then I can tell you how to d it
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<MikeFair>
Taoki, You can't use blacklists or filtering to prevent posting
<Taoki>
Posting is fine. The issue is how you modify a user's profile to include your post, without being able to modify it in every other way.
<Taoki>
Hmmm
<Taoki>
Tomorrow though, need to run now
<Taoki>
Poke me please if I forget. But I'll try not to
<Taoki>
Still thinking of this idea a lot and got stuck at this chapter
<deltab>
there's a few ways to handle it
<MikeFair>
Taoki, okay, you do it by linking your posts on other people's boards within your own profile
<deltab>
note you don't have to have one file that multiple people can edit
<deltab>
you can have "and see these other places for updates"
<MikeFair>
Taoki, there's then a predictable way for that page to find all the people who have posted and "suck in" their comments
<deltab>
with search, you can search for updates others have published
<MikeFair>
search in p2p decentralized is "hard"
<Taoki>
Other people's boards... in IPFS this means other files in the network, as there is no server processing the data.
<Kythyria[m]>
MikeFair: Diaspora isn't P2P in the sense usually understood, is it?
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], It's "island hosted" and federated
<Taoki>
I plan to have interfaces translating user's json profiles into the html page you see. That part is easy... those interfaces would need to keep track of some stuff too though.
<Kythyria[m]>
"island hosted"?
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], but not p2p like merkle and XOR routing
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<Taoki>
AFK
<Kythyria[m]>
What, as in, "not a single centralised cluster"?
<deltab>
like mastodon?
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], Right, each "community" runs their own node; all the nodes then pass data around
<Kythyria[m]>
But that's already implied by "federated"
<deltab>
anyone can set up a server, host any number of accounts on it, and syndicate content to other servers
<MikeFair>
right
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<MikeFair>
so like I said, not in the full XOR routing sense
<deltab>
(or rather from, as it's pull)
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* Kythyria[m]
's bar for "P2P" is "designed to work even if all of the nodes are only desktop-class at best"
<MikeFair>
but given that I could run my own insteance and fully participate, I consider that p2p like
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], yeah, I can't use that metric; I consider it too unrealistic and not how humans are actually going to behave
<Kythyria[m]>
That makes "p2p" and "federated" synonyms, which isn't helpful.
<Kythyria[m]>
(especially since there are also people who consider "federated" to be the same as "fully centralised")
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], It doesn't "Federated" can still mean "centralized servers"
<MikeFair>
p2p means I can enter as an individual or as part of a group without restriction in participation
<MikeFair>
imho
<Kythyria[m]>
But you can design a P2P-looking network to not have that restriction.
<Kythyria[m]>
er, non-restriction
<Kythyria[m]>
Heck, doesn't IPFS already have such a mode?
<MikeFair>
private networks
<Kythyria[m]>
By that standard, XMPP is P2P, and IPFS in private network mode is not.
<MikeFair>
yes
<MikeFair>
that fits with my comprehension, definitions, and use cases of what I think p2p should mean
<MikeFair>
and the private network mode is p2p within its restricted gorup
<Kythyria[m]>
That also means that any protocol which doesn't hardcode a single server cluster, is neither P2P nor not P2P.
<Kythyria[m]>
And it's a matter of the configuration of a particular instance.
<MikeFair>
I'd make the distinction that; the tech is decentralized p2p -- used to implement a centralized p2p mode
<MikeFair>
As I can't just throw up my node and join; it lacks the "decentralized" moniker
<MikeFair>
it's "centralized p2p" --- which I accept; but mostly ignore ---- though ironically advocate the use cases for
<MikeFair>
"moveable central authorities" is how human beings seem to operate
<MikeFair>
s/moveable/mutable
<MikeFair>
Without the big badass central servers, individuals are forced to take on too much responsibility that they can't reliably handle
<Kythyria[m]>
There's no real distinction though: XMPP, for instance, defines no restriction on whether or not a server communicates with another server.
<MikeFair>
By default, it leverages DNS, which in turn translates to an address, like SMTP does
<MikeFair>
I consider DNS, despite ICANN "decentralized p2p enough" for practical purposes, but pedantically very much not decentralized p2p
<MikeFair>
Which in my mind's eye is actually the most useful kind of these networks for use cases like DNS
<MikeFair>
A little bit of regulation at the very top to kep things sane; and all heck breaks loose towards the edges
<MikeFair>
s/top/center/
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], In XMPP, by default, all servers "should" be able to communicate with each other
<Kythyria[m]>
The spec says nothing about that, though.
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], By specifying the SVR records for domains and xmpp service lookup within the federated namespace, it does
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], Otherwise there's not much point in joining a federated ecosystem
<Kythyria[m]>
So does SIP, but I bet a big chunk of SIP deployments don't federate.
<Kythyria[m]>
In any meaningful way.
<Kythyria[m]>
Or they do so with pretty strict rules.
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], SIP absolutely does; with the telecom networks
<MikeFair>
but SIP doesn't provide routing
<MikeFair>
at least I don't recall it providing routing or discovery
<Kythyria[m]>
AFAIK it does to the same extent as XMPP.
<Kythyria[m]>
(well, not discovery to the same extent as XMPP)
<MikeFair>
so without those things by my rendering, it can't be p2p
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], I guess you could say "automated discovery and direct connection" is what distinguishes p2p networks in my mind
<MikeFair>
s/direct/direct or indirect/
<Elon_Satoshi[m]>
Oh hello, I saw you in #offtopic:matrix.org
<MikeFair>
can someone kick
<Kythyria[m]>
In which case SIP is definitely P2P. I doubt it's used like that so much though.
<MikeFair>
fair enough
<MikeFair>
I'd likely consider SIP in its entirety P2P I've only seen it used for centralized point to point connections for local phone networks
<MikeFair>
(Though I had Vonage for a while)
<Kythyria[m]>
(it actually is possible to operate SIP clients in a serverless mode, provided they let you enter IP addresses directly)
<MikeFair>
and was bumbed that Google Voice never allowed for SIP endpoints
<Kythyria[m]>
(actually using IP addressess as phone numbers isn't all that helpful though)
<MikeFair>
no, my conclusion is that ip addresses aren't all that useful with a port
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<MikeFair>
it could be an implied port, but you never really have an interesting conversation with an ip address
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<MikeFair>
s/with a port/without a port/
<MikeFair>
To draw the parallel, IP address = "Node" ; and that's kind of like connecting to a building; you don't usually connect to a "building" you connect to a point on the building
<MikeFair>
At the application layer anyway
<MikeFair>
Kythyria[m], So I'm curious, would your definition of p2p then be something like desktop level "edge only" connections
<Kythyria[m]>
Roughly "no server-class machines required"
<MikeFair>
What do you consider the router devices in the middle of the network?
<Kythyria[m]>
(server-class referring more to uptime and connectivity than massiveness)
<Kythyria[m]>
Routers :P
<Kythyria[m]>
But they do fit the definition.
<MikeFair>
they are still servers (they still run software, and some of them are quite powerful)
<Kythyria[m]>
Yeh. They're on all the time and stay put.
<MikeFair>
Which would meet your "server class" definition wouldn't it?
<Kythyria[m]>
Yup
<MikeFair>
The only problem I have with the "edge connected majority" definition is that it's going to be highly inefficient as a communication networks (a lot of the same data going over the same channels multiple times)
<Kythyria[m]>
Yup. Is why I don't like "P2P everything!" approaches.
<MikeFair>
But even IPFS is going to have "super nodes"
<Kythyria[m]>
You have to do all that extra work to compensate for all the nodes being located at the edge.
<Kythyria[m]>
And yep. People are going to run it on servers, to ensure maximum pinnedness for data they want to publish.
<MikeFair>
Which is why, in-practice, we human beings centralize some things
<MikeFair>
so given that's the way it is "in-practice" does that disqualify IPFS as a decentralied p2p tech for you?
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<deltab>
there are multiple aspects to a system; some are decentralized, some are not, and some are a mixture
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<nixfreak>
ok I have hundreds of peers connected right now , but everything time I put a hash into the webui or cli nothing happens ? what am I doing wrong ?
<nixfreak>
Also do you have to ipfs get all hashes to see other files ?
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<voker57>
nixfreak: you mean put as in `ipfs get QmHash` ?
<voker57>
what do you mean by "see other files"?
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<nixfreak>
nm I'm reading the gitbook on ipfs sorry for the questions
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<cyberwolf[m]>
can anyone translate text from German to Russian?
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<Taoki>
Hi. I had a question: Does the IPFS Companion extension ( https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ipfs-companion/ ) also add support for js-ipfs-api in browsers? So if the extension is running, the browser understands IPFS related commands from JavaScript scripts running on web pages?
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<EnricoFasoli[m]>
You don't need the extension for that, just having a running ipfs node on your PC is enough, you just have to make sure it is configured to allow requests from any page but iirc it's set like that by default
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<fiatjaf>
what is the correct way of getting a peer's public key on libp2p?
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<Taoki>
lidel: Back. Got it, thanks!
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<Taoki>
lidel: Yeah I was wondering how to teach Firefox about the js-ipfs-api The explanations I got so far are pretty complicated (never worked with browserify before).
<Taoki>
It it something you can simply embed on a website?
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<Taoki>
Oh yeah... you replied to me actually! I'm MirceaKitsune on the forum :)
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<lidel>
:D yup
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<lidel>
Taoki, i mean, yes, we provide a drop-in .js file that you just embedd via <script> on your website and you have working ipfs api or full node.