Werner__ changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | This channel is logged -> http://irc.armbian.com
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<TRS-80> Evening Guise
<lanefu> howdy
<lanefu> lol guess I'll be rebuilding my odroid n2 desktop tonight..... tried to switch kernels on a old install
<TRS-80> I need to finsih converting to new dotfile storage method and install script for my base system for just such occasions
<lanefu> yeah I've got an ansible base role that sets up a lot of stuff... but haven't done any desktop oriented things
<TRS-80> If I am not mistaken, I think XFCE keeps all settings in text files. So I hope for that to be my universal desktop across systems. Have not yet started trying to keep those settings under git yet though.
<lanefu> i butcher it all and put mate on it
<archetech> mate !
<archetech> mah teh
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<m4t> hey, is there a reason that armbian needs to download *all* compilers before doing any building? considering in the scope of a single board/kernel, probably only 1 or 2 is used? https://github.com/armbian/build/blob/master/lib/general.sh#L816-L841
<m4t> i went through and cleaned up some disk space a month or so ago, thinking they'd just accumulated over time, but they're all coming back :P
<lanefu> m4t: its just an optimization that isn't a priority.
<m4t> there'd need to be some kind of dependency mapping between compiler and target?
<lanefu> yeah.... and there sort of is a mapping
<lanefu> based on family, it tells minimum compiler n stuff
<lanefu> but all the dependencies are currently installed before board selection stage happens in the build tool
<m4t> ah
<lanefu> if its really causing you pain, you could try modifying the toolchain list here https://github.com/armbian/build/blob/master/lib/general.sh#L819
<m4t> sounds like a good way to get merge conflicts when i rebase against master ;(
<lanefu> yes lol
<lanefu> if you're really rebasing into your own repo, it would probably succeed most of the time
<lanefu> i mean if its a real pain point
<lanefu> otherwise i'd just embrace the disks pace
<lanefu> *disk space
<lanefu> if you wanted to refactor and send a PR we'd probably be open to it. You're not the first person to bring it up
<lanefu> ex: if using export mode, permit an alternate list to be specified
<lanefu> *expert mode
<m4t> hmm yeah it's about 14G extracted
<m4t> i'm just skimming
<m4t> hmm that doesn't explain things actually, nevermind
<m4t> the toolchain vers per distro don't match with the list of toolchain tarballs
<TRS-80> bbl
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<archetech> even if it limted its pull to a chip familt would be better
<archetech> family
<archetech> ie dont have to be exact just better at it
<archetech> we use a wget-list at lfs if that would work
<archetech> but thats pkgs not git repos
<lanefu> the download code is more complicated than that
<lanefu> it tries first to pull via torrent
<lanefu> and also has workarounds for china
<archetech> if I dig into something it will be what uboot to matchup to 5.x kernels for 3328
<patrixl> bane of my life , that (on rk3399 though)
<archetech> id have to step thru the whole auto build of itfrom the start I guess
<archetech> patrixl: have you built a working image for 3399 with build system?
<patrixl> no success on that yet
<archetech> using 5.x kernel
<patrixl> though it occurs to me I should try a 4.4 kernel first and make sure I'm not messing up the whole process itself
<archetech> ic same here
<patrixl> but so far, have not been able to boot any image with 5.x or a 5.x I built myself
<archetech> yup I did that it works
<archetech> right me either
<patrixl> that includes official "current" armbian images from the download links
<patrixl> buster or bionic etc
<patrixl> ok nice to know I'm not alone
<archetech> yes ty for piping up
<patrixl> reading the forum I see plenty of people saying they run 5.4.x on their nanopi m4v2, so I'm jealous lol
<archetech> on armbian?
<patrixl> yes
<archetech> hmm arch works here
<patrixl> penty = just a few but you know what I mean LOL
<archetech> just not armbian
<patrixl> oh really hmmm
<patrixl> well based on serial console output, I see nothing after "Starting kernel", even with verbosity=7
<patrixl> so something's wrong wih the kernel or with uboot or their matchup or (I have no idea what I'm doing)
<archetech> I suspect its same for me
<archetech> but no proof
<patrixl> yeah hard to get proof
<patrixl> even compiled a kernel right on the board itself, no ubuntu LTS cross-compiling and build scripts
<patrixl> same results
<patrixl> how did you get Arch running?
<archetech> lasne made a request I just have to wait for igor to try it
<archetech> lane
<archetech> arch just the normal way
<archetech> I tried using their uboot didnt work with armbian rootfs
<patrixl> right
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<patrixl> ah well guess I'll wait a bit for this to be figured out, I want to actually use this board to get some things done lol
<archetech> yup I ned it for compiling stuff
<patrixl> it's my makeshift laptop, paired with a Nexdock 2... at least I'm trying to use it as such
<lanefu> archetech: did you say arch is working with kernel 5.4?
<archetech> yes
<archetech> theirs also boots my lfs rootfs np
<lanefu> where's their u-boot config and kernel config
<archetech> archs repo
<archetech> uboot-rockchip
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<lanefu> i'm arch blind, send me a link
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<lanefu> OMG does arch really use svn?
<archetech> brb
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<archetech> link is on their homepage
* archetech moves lfs build from armbian hdd to its own
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<archetech> booted lfs w/ arch kernel sadly no hdmi or network but I mounted the drive on arch pc and can read the journal
<archetech> tells me armbian isa viable build host
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<archetech> forgot to copy the modules doh
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<Werner__> Good morning people
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<Werner__> Morning Igor
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<IgorPec> hi
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<neothefox> hey everyone
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<lanefu> howdy
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<Coraxyn> Morning
<lanefu> howdy
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<Tony_mac32> Guten Morgen
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<count-doku> hi
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<lanefu> hi count-doku
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<TRS-80> Morning, all! :)
<Tony_mac32> I am comparing my attempt at sound with Oleg's, and... I don't know why mine is not working.
* Tony_mac32 contemplates taking up art
* TRS-80 points out that art comes in many forms
* Tony_mac32 notes that some art is better than others
* lanefu ponders... what _is_ art?
<TRS-80> OhShitHereWeGo.jpg
* count-doku thinks art is in the eye of the beholder.
* Tony_mac32 knows it is not a banana taped to a wall
<Tony_mac32> TRS-80 hahaha
* lanefu knows eating said banana from wall is not performance art
* Tony_mac32 tonymac thinks it might count via comedy
* TRS-80 knows that most of expensive "modern art" going for ridiculous prices is actually just money laundering / tax evasion
* lanefu is not a tax attorney
<TRS-80> count-doku: Tony_mac32: +1
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<TRS-80> Tony_mac32 (or anyone, but I know Tony_mac32 has more experience with them) Can anyone recommend good ESP 32 / 8266 device(s) to get started with? So far I only used Arduino (Nano, Pro Mini) so I am not complete noob but now I look at a project that recommends ESP over Arduino and I'm not even sure where to look / what to search for.
<Tony_mac32> I could send you a prototype of mine, that way if you have any HAT' slying around you could just pop them on and play
<count-doku> get some dev board with flash memory on it. I think just the ESP32 chip does not contain any flash.
<Tony_mac32> The typical boards have between 4 and 16 MB on them via SPI, then some have spi RAM as well
<TRS-80> Project is: https://docs.openmqttgateway.com/prerequisites/board.html I am going for "one device to gateway them all" and seems ESP* are recommended for this use-case (I don't care about LoRa, GSM).
<lanefu> probably a bag o' D1 Mini clones would be all you need.. but Tony_mac32's board is way cooler
<lanefu> speaking of which... i need to figure out what to do with mine :P
<Tony_mac32> OK, if you aren't shy with a soldering iron, more or less any of the dev boards will work with https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/sparkfun-electronics/KIT-13815/1568-1401-ND/6072316
<TRS-80> I am proud owner of (Actually fairly decent, IMO) Chinese Hakko clone (Yihua 939) with proper tips and solder. And all these years I thought it was a matter of skill. It's really not. It's easy with right equipment.
<Tony_mac32> Crowd Supply finally replied to me saying they'd check, but 2 business days later they hadn't replied about the export control status, and my dashboard shows no movement.
<TRS-80> Tony_mac32: Is that correct link? Beefy relay? I think I might use for somethign else, but not what I am asking about here.
<TRS-80> But I would love to check out one of your devices :)
<TRS-80> lanefu: Yeah that is one I seem to hear mentioned a lot
<TRS-80> wiki.wemos.cc uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate expired on December 22, 2019 /facepalm.jpg
<Tony_mac32> TRS-80 I saw the "list of stuff it can do" and wasn't sure exactly your need. Do you need RF? IR?
<TRS-80> first need is RF, then maybe later IR and/or BLE (and maybe never). But I tend to get into things that have lots of upside potential. I figure if I am going to spend time getting familiar with some tool, I don't want to re-do that all again later if I need more functionality.
<TRS-80> I have some generic 433Mhx devices I want to start tying in to openHAB (switches, buttons, relays, etc.)
<Tony_mac32> OK, so RF (non wifi/bt) will need a transceiver
<TRS-80> yes I have those
<TRS-80> already
<TRS-80> got superheterodyne ones, as recommended
<Tony_mac32> link? (I haven't played in ISM RF band in a long time)
<TRS-80> just search for that term on Ali (or preferred site) there are lots of them, and only slightly more than the cheap ones
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<TRS-80> or you mean you want to see like pin out or such?
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<Tony_mac32> Ah ok, it's just a digital gateway, you have to do the protocol all in software?
<phipli_lurk> archetech : the rock64 USB3 works properly if I put a USB3 hub between the Rock64 and the hard disk !?
<Tony_mac32> phipli_lurk which kernel?
<phipli_lurk> 4.4.192-rockchip64
<lanefu> Tony_mac32: do you have a Rock64 && are you aware of no-ouput that archetech has been experiencing with mainline-current?
<Tony_mac32> I have been working on mainline current. I added USB3 to the mainline, I did some limited testing so am interested in this
* phipli_lurk rolls eyes. Nope, back down to slow again. Brief period it worked at >70MB/s write
<TRS-80> Tony_mac32: I am not sure, just starting to play with it, so not really familiar in detail. This project is in "learn just enough to order parts from China" phase. Then over the coming weeks I will read and learn more about the protocol or how it works or whatever. ;)
<Tony_mac32> for the 4.4 kernel I have no knowledge, the vendor kernel is... well.
<Tony_mac32> I haven't looked at it in a while
<Tony_mac32> lunch, then I'll be back
<TRS-80> enjoy
* TRS-80 is still having coffee
<TRS-80> as my wife says "for 6 hours" XD
<TRS-80> she is a slace driving corporate kool-aid drinker, with no appreciation for Slack
<TRS-80> s/slace/slave
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* TRS-80 is just now reading on differenced between ESP 32 and 8266 for the first time
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<lanefu> ESP8266 was a happy accident.. ESP32 was on purpose
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<TRS-80> is bad idea to order 5 or 10 packs of clones on Ali (like I do with the small Arduinos)?
<phipli> I've not seen any bad ones yet
<TRS-80> thanks phipli, just getting into the ESPs
<phipli> I have bought a load of ESP-12s on their own for my boards
<TRS-80> yeah eventually I suppose you get to that point, like I have with Atmel 328
<phipli> TRS-80, my favourite boards are the D1 minis and the node mcu boards
<phipli> for ESP8266
<TRS-80> what makes them your favorite?
<phipli> for ESP32s... I haven't actually used them as much because the ESP8266 is more than enough for most projects
<TRS-80> I hear that a lot btw
<phipli> TRS-80, easy to use, good documentation, easy to program from the arduino ide
<phipli> breadboard friendly
<phipli> built in USB
<phipli> cheap
<TRS-80> they are small also
<phipli> yes, that too
<phipli> and the headers aren't pre-soldered so if you just want to wire something into it you can
<TRS-80> how well does on board antenna trace work? I am thinking getting maybe one with external antenna for this gateway device
<phipli> full length of my house
<phipli> at work I have a wireless nametag that I can log into from the work kitchen
<phipli> about... 25 metres?
<phipli> obviously walls make things worse
<phipli> TRS-80, if you're making your own boards, you can get these really cheap : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32966381920.html
<phipli> in terms of supporting electronics, all you really need is a 3.3v regulator and some capacitors
<TRS-80> well, I will probably start out with modules for prototyping, learning, eventually later move to just chips for custom boards and making things smaller
<TRS-80> phipli: Thanks for info
<phipli> TRS-80, if you look through the Arduino examples, one of them is a self updating example (you can upload your code through a browser and it writes it to itself and resets)
<phipli> that can save a lot of faff, so it might be worth basing your code around that example
<phipli> (obviously you need the same upload code in the replacement firmware, otherwise you can't do it next time)
<Tony_mac32> I haven't looked that closely, but a lot of self-modifying firmwares skip the part where they overwrite themselves
<TRS-80> neat
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<phipli> Tony_mac32, in this case it is part of the program you're uploading, so you have to make sure it is in the replacement software if you want to use it again. Not an issue really, I just use the example as a template to start my projects
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<TRS-80> >ESP32 has ethernet MAC interface
<TRS-80> also bluetooth built in
<TRS-80> I think I found my gateway base board
<TRS-80> will still order some 8266 to play with for other things
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<nacelle> the esp32 can do a lot... https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-go/
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<archetech> gday
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<TRS-80> hi archetech
<TRS-80> nacelle: I had to read down the page a bit to see that's running on ESP32! Wow...
<TRS-80> OK, gotta run. bbl
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<Tony_mac32> I have an Odroid-go, I have learned I need to try an alternative firmware with more game emulators
<archetech> Tony_mac32: got a link to a bootable rock64 rc-1 image by chance?
<Tony_mac32> last I checked the rc1 booted, hang on, building a renegade with (I hope) sound
<c0rnelius_> ha
<c0rnelius_> good luck
<Tony_mac32> ?
<Tony_mac32> I had only forgotten to enable I2s 0 and 1 from what I can tell
<Tony_mac32> the audio pipeline is all there in mainline
<c0rnelius_> just the last time i tried using the renegade with rk3328 codec enabled it gave me read/write errors if i used an sdcard.
<c0rnelius_> of course that was back in the 4.4.x days
<c0rnelius_> i haven't played with the renegade in ages
<Tony_mac32> ah ok
<c0rnelius_> gave up hope on that old girl
<Tony_mac32> I also upped the SD IO drive currents to make it more stable as well, that should help
<Tony_mac32> someone mainlined it thankfully
<c0rnelius_> did that?
<Tony_mac32> yes, 4 mA drive is nowhere near enough to do more than 25 MHz to the SD
<c0rnelius_> thy*
<c0rnelius_> they* geez
<Tony_mac32> so it's set to 8
<c0rnelius_> well i'll have to check it out sometime. nice to see it is still being worked on.
<Tony_mac32> The Rock64 and Renegade fell victim to horrible mainline neglect by Rockchip
<c0rnelius_> yeah. sad affair really
<Tony_mac32> and the Rockchip 4.4 kernel is a crapshoot depending on the release/time of year/ phase of moon
<c0rnelius_> i will say this... it ran way more stable when using an emmc.
<c0rnelius_> right now i just use my as local web server because atleast the ethernet port works well.
<Tony_mac32> it would, the capacitive loading on the emmc is way less, so the drive strengths don't need to be as high. All those pins and flat paddles/etc in SD makes it a bit dicey.
<Tony_mac32> SD quality is waay more variable than emmc as well
<c0rnelius_> indeed
<c0rnelius_> it did make for a somewhat ok kodi box as well. depending on the build and kernel of course.
<Tony_mac32> I had an extended period off because of some health issues w/family, I let things bit rot a bit. fixing
<c0rnelius_> hey man life happens
<Tony_mac32> I have a report the RAM speed is off somehow, between that and reports of getting 1/2 ram I think some U-boot plumbing is in order too
<c0rnelius_> that with the mainline kernel?
<Tony_mac32> yep
<c0rnelius_> gotcha
<Tony_mac32> he Renegade is lpddr4
<Tony_mac32> so it's double-damned from a Rockchip support standpoint
<c0rnelius_> did they clean up dts dtb business in the mainline kernel or do you guys still patch all that?
<archetech> so rockchip put out rock64 gave initial support and now anything new like 5.x kernel they say sry we done helping with this product we sold 2yrs ago?
<c0rnelius_> last time i checked it only picked up one usb port
<c0rnelius_> if i just pulled from kernel.org that is.
<Tony_mac32> Pine made Rock64
<Tony_mac32> Libre Computer Renegade
<Tony_mac32> with Firefly
<c0rnelius_> well Firefly
<archetech> oh so its them pine peeps
<Tony_mac32> I fixed the USB ports. at least mostly
<Tony_mac32> both USB2 work, and I have had no issues with USB3
<c0rnelius_> hmmm neat.
<Tony_mac32> but a vendor like Pine/Libre Computer/Firefly are somewhat dependant on the SoC vendor to at least give a damn
<archetech> phipli_lurk and I both tested usb3 at 15-30mb max on 4.4 kernel
<archetech> yesterday
<Tony_mac32> yeah, I haven't touched that mess
<Tony_mac32> I have stuck to cleaning the 5.4 up, since it's *really* close to function parity with 4.4
<Tony_mac32> vcodec and Mali support are almost there
<c0rnelius_> nice
<archetech> ok sounds promising ill withhold my rant agaist pine
<c0rnelius_> i don't get mad at pine, i just don't buy from them anymore
<Tony_mac32> lol
<c0rnelius_> although that h6 looked interesting
<archetech> c0rnelius_: im down with that solution
<Tony_mac32> I don't know what Pine does software wise, I do know Libre Computer puts a lot of resources into getting things mainlined.
<Tony_mac32> But, there are limits when the basics aren't covered by the SoC guys
<c0rnelius_> same goes with libre computer. although i do like the boards they sell. just support is... not so good?
<c0rnelius_> but it is what it is
<Tony_mac32> I haven't tried reaching out through their end user support, so no idea
<c0rnelius_> i wouldn't bother
<archetech> ok anybody messing with the stuff you are Tony_mac32 I'll listen too next board will be from a vendor who gives a dang
<c0rnelius_> is there such a vendor?
<archetech> he just libre does
<archetech> said
<Tony_mac32> well, like I sadi, on the hardware/software side they do, I have no idea what support for say defects looks like
<archetech> im out ~$15 on this first purch at the worst
<archetech> call it learning costs
<Tony_mac32> what is it?
<archetech> rock64
<Tony_mac32> which one? V1/2/3?
<archetech> v2
<c0rnelius_> libre is a lot of figure it out ur self. but they do produce imgs and make an attempt on that end.
<archetech> it works fine in many ways just has lots of gotchas usb nic ram-cpu mhz settings etc
<c0rnelius_> i like the le potato and all-h5.
<c0rnelius_> solid boards
<Tony_mac32> I don't have that one, I have a pre-V1 and a V3.
<archetech> w/e you do on the v3 should work main diff is its got a clock
<Tony_mac32> I have all of their boards for support reasons, and can say they are put together pretty well. None of the typical "WTF" hardware issues I am accustomed to
<Tony_mac32> the All-H3/5 are obviously intended to be cheap boards, and are still pretty solid
<c0rnelius_> yeah they are well done.
<c0rnelius_> i use my h5 with mycroft.ai. works really well. the le potatos i have run coreelec. very good experience so far with both.
<Tony_mac32> they put a ton of work behind the 4.19 kernel mainline stuff to make that happen, so La Frite is similarly well supported.
<archetech> what Im shooting for is a good aarch64 board that compiles well and has good gpu support
<Tony_mac32> the bootloader on La Frite is pretty awesome, on board in flash
<c0rnelius_> i heard. Da gave me a mouthful one day :)
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<Tony_mac32> haha
<c0rnelius_> isn't la frite limited in memory?
<archetech> uefi boot would be nice too
<c0rnelius_> which is what turned me off from wanting one
<Tony_mac32> the S805X is to the S905X what the H2+ is to the H3
<c0rnelius_> MMm i see
<Tony_mac32> so it's a TV box SoC with a lot of bells and whistles turned off
<c0rnelius_> yeah. i don't think i needs dis
<c0rnelius_> interesting looking board all the same.
<archetech> theres nothing worse than arch arm on rock64 in ssh it just freezes
<archetech> completely random and frequent
<Tony_mac32> interesting
<c0rnelius_> my renegade never freezse in ssh
<Tony_mac32> there are some ethernet PHY issues I know of
<c0rnelius_> but it is over ethernet on 4.4.198+
<archetech> yes armbian 4.4 dont do it
<archetech> but I cant use armbian on lfs cuz its too complicated arch just cp -a the boot dir im done
<archetech> plus the modules/firmware
<c0rnelius_> oh i
<c0rnelius_> oh. i'm just using the armbian kernel. i made my debian img for the board.
<c0rnelius_> i actually made a few different ones. OpenSUSE, Crux, Void and Debian. But i stuck with debian.
<Tony_mac32> OK, 1 step forward, I see the audio devices. alsa seems happy. Pulseaudio... well.. it's pulseAudio. PA = Pain in Ass :)
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<c0rnelius_> ha
<c0rnelius_> good job
<c0rnelius_> and the sdcard didn't go into readonly mode?
<Tony_mac32> nope, not yet anyway.
<c0rnelius_> well that is a good sign
<Tony_mac32> but I'm not calling it a win yet. Everything registered, but PA won't make a peep, need to do some aplay to make sure it's alive
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<Tony_mac32> I've got sound, and no SD errors. making some cleanup before pushing
* Tony_mac32 will probably update the Rock64 dts to match mainline conventions
<archetech> Host: blfs-r64 Kernel: 5.4.15-1-ARCH aarch64 bits: 64 Console: tty 0
<archetech> Distro: ARM Linux From Scratch 20200119-systemd
<archetech> Machine: Type: ARM Device System: Pine64 Rock64
<archetech> I want that but using armbian rock64 kernel not happening so far
<Tony_mac32> the RC1 bionic image is https://dl.armbian.com/rock64/Bionic_current_desktop
<archetech> tried that
<Tony_mac32> interesting, what was it doing?
<archetech> built it dl'ed it dont matter we dont know no serial cable here
<archetech> only u and igor have rock64's so im stopped
<archetech> which is fine I have arch working above
<archetech> but would like to try image of armbian on sdcard
<archetech> that isnt 4.4
<Tony_mac32> I thought more of us had the Rock64, huh. Well, I'll circle around once I have this sound patched
<archetech> ok
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<Tony_mac32> Yeah I'll push this, I'm going to need to have someone figure out the PulseAudio bits, it seems to not be init-ing properly, you have to toggle the output a couple times.
<archetech> if it chirps with asound...ship it
<archetech> heh
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<Tony_mac32> Hi IgorPec
<IgorPec> hej
<Tony_mac32> I had to throw out an ethernet cable, and I suspect my HDMI cable is going bad on my bench.
<IgorPec> yeah, cables ... you try to debug rock64?
<patrixl> archetech: I have a rock64 too, in additino to my nanopim4v2.. though my rock64 is pretty much a machine I don't want to mess with but maybe I can help somehow wih a spare sdcard?
<patrixl> haven't read the whole conversation my eyes just zoned in on the rock64 mention ;)
<IgorPec> me neither :)
<patrixl> lol
<archetech> back grnd lane and I built every image with 5.4 and nothing will boot but 4.4 on my rock64
<archetech> so ya if ya want to dl an rc1 image and try it please do
<patrixl> sure, though I remember trying some 5.x kernels last year and they didn't boot
<IgorPec> ok, i can check 5.4. from download
<patrixl> not gonna do anything now since I'm not at home though
<archetech> ok whenever
<archetech> im not in a hurry mostly curious what the issue is
<patrixl> sure :)
<Tony_mac32> I'll take a look here after bit, family stuff for a couple hours
<archetech> sure
<IgorPec> rock64 v3.0 boots latest rc1 with 5.4.14 normally
<Tony_mac32> :-/
<Tony_mac32> I'll use my old as dirt one (early V1)
<archetech> yeah :(
<Tony_mac32> The differences weren't quite as simple as the press release. ;-)
<archetech> guess we need a v1 or 2 to try
<archetech> mines v2
<Tony_mac32> I was using my V3
<archetech> ok narrowing it down then
<IgorPec> v2 doesn't boot
<archetech> ok so u have both boards igor?
<IgorPec> yes, i got v3 and v2. I just move SD card to v2 and no sign of booting
<archetech> super then at least its confirmed
<IgorPec> yesž
<archetech> not my burns or something
<Tony_mac32> just quick test, the 5.4.13 I built Jan 20 booted on my V1
<Tony_mac32> I don't have a V2
<archetech> best if ya tried a release image v5.4
<Tony_mac32> I was the only one making changes to that board. ;-) But agreed
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<patrixl> hmm how can I see which version I have of the rock64, from within Linux?
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<lanefu> archetech: so unlucky #2
<archetech> seems so ...
* archetech ain't buyin no v3
<lanefu> lol