Werner changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | Armbian 20.11 Tamandua released | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | Developer talk: #armbian-devel | Forum feed: #armbian-rss | Type 'help' for help | Logs: -> irc.armbian.com
<stipa>
it's pathetic
<ArmbianTwitter>
@fkardame (Furkan kardame): @Fox0x01 @armbian Hardware and looks is nothing unless you have a robust software running on it. Best would be truenas or any linux with manually configured services. So what are you running on it? (24s ago)
<stipa>
Retarded bill gates will one day start to think that whole code on GitHub is his...
<stipa>
no wonder why win 10 is so stable
<IgorPec>
FYI win10 doesn't even boot on our threadripper server :)
<TRS-80>
oO Why were you even trying though? XD
<TRS-80>
Why not?
<stipa>
drivers probably
<TRS-80>
stipa: I think they (GitHub) were just their own company, a startup, or whatever.
<TRS-80>
I don't think Linus is protecting anything, perhaps just naive and enjoying all the "success", accolades, and fiunancial sponsorship.
<stipa>
TRS-80: maybe it was built for Microsoft in the first place
<TRS-80>
It definitely was not, "in the first place" in fact Microsoft have been trying to kill Free Software for a long time, calling it cancer, etc. However nowadays it's just another platform for Windows to run their software on, as everything becoming all about "the cloud" nowadays. So in a sense, you are right (now), however very wrong from historical perspective.
<stipa>
it all stinkks real bad
<stipa>
but what can you do
<TRS-80>
alert people of the danger :)
<stipa>
it's a waste of time
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<stipa>
having plan B is ok to have if good guys decide to screw everyone
<stipa>
till then we live hapily
<TRS-80>
I don't see Linus screwing anyone (intentionally, anyway). Microsoft on the other hand, I count on it, infact not a question of if but only when...
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<stipa>
he's busy making covid vaccine
<lanefu>
sorry about jumping in and out, i accidently rebooted the wrong device twice.. then on purpose
<TRS-80>
But yes, I am happy in the meantime. :) Even though I make time to point out things which I think people should be aware of, which may not be pleasant.
<IgorPec>
lanefu: is this change today?
<TRS-80>
stipa: lol
<stipa>
:]
<lanefu>
IgorPec: yes
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<ArmbianTwitter>
@lanefu (Lane Jennison): One of the biggest advantages of the helios and Armbian is being able run a mainline or close-to-mainline kernel with a full debian-based or ubuntu-based userspace. So linux with manually configured servers is definitely an option. https://t.co/H2DEWX96HQ (17s ago)
<oncle>
-- hallo, ich habe ein paar Probleme mit Armbian und der N2+. Zum einen bekomme ich keinen GUI und der Bildschirm flackert. außerdem verhält sich die Tastatur zu schnell. armbian-config bricht bei der Einstellung Enable Desktop mit Klilled ab...
<oncle>
de~>eng -- hallo, ich habe ein paar Probleme mit Armbian und der N2+. Zum einen bekomme ich keinen GUI und der Bildschirm flackert. außerdem verhält sich die Tastatur zu schnell. armbian-config bricht bei der Einstellung Enable Desktop mit Klilled ab...
<TRS-80>
--hallo, ich habe ein paar Probleme mit Armbian und der N2+. Zum einen bekomme ich keinen GUI und der Bildschirm flackert. außerdem verhält sich die Tastatur zu schnell. armbian-config bricht bei der Einstellung Enable Desktop mit Klilled ab...
<TRS-80>
--hallo, ich habe ein paar Probleme mit Armbian und der N2+. Zum einen bekomme ich keinen GUI und der Bildschirm flackert. außerdem verhält sich die Tastatur zu schnell. armbian-config bricht bei der Einstellung Enable Desktop mit Klilled ab
<TRS-80>
--hallo, ich habe ein paar Probleme mit Armbian und der N2+. Zum einen bekomme ich keinen GUI und der Bildschirm flackert. außerdem verhält sich die Tastatur zu schnell. armbian-config bricht bei der Einstellung Enable Desktop mit Klilled ab.
<TRS-80>
bot must be down
<TRS-80>
Werner ^
<oncle>
Okay, I'm having some issues with armbian and my n2+. I can't get after booting a GUI. My Screen is flackering, my keyboard reacting to fast. armbian-config is breaking up after system-settings Enable-Desktop...I'm using armbian buster...
<oncle>
Do I have to build by my own a Desktop?
<oncle>
yesterday my screen was not filckering...
<oncle>
someone like to help?
<TRS-80>
oncle: Hang around a while, someone may answer. If not, you might want to make a forum post instead. I don't know anything about that particular board, sorry.
<TRS-80>
You may need to click on "Check other download options"
<oncle>
but it's not a problem to install a other .img
<TRS-80>
No, it will install, but there will be no desktop, only server
<TRS-80>
i.e., base Armbian
<TRS-80>
may people use these SBS headless
<TRS-80>
many
<TRS-80>
SBC
<oncle>
yes, that sound good...
<TRS-80>
let us know, good luck! :)
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<oncle>
everthing is fine with nice desktop
<TRS-80>
Glad to hear it! :)
<oncle>
but one thing I would to know, why is the fan not working?
<TRS-80>
That, I have no idea. Search forums maybe? Only make a post if you cannot find answer (else contribute to existing thread).
<TRS-80>
You could also search issues on GitHub and/or Jira. It could be a known issue. But I have no idea about that board.
<archetech>
try odroid forum
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<TRS-80>
But what would that have to do with getting something working in Armbian?
<oncle>
nothing
<archetech>
suit urself
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<oncle>
maybe armbian-config would bring that fan to work?
<TRS-80>
It should "just work." But maybe it doesn't need to be on all the time. N2 have a big heatsink, right?
<lanefu>
No
<TRS-80>
My ODROID-XU4 fan only comes on under load, for instance.
<TRS-80>
lanefu: no u
<TRS-80>
:p
<oncle>
below the board...there is the fan...
<TRS-80>
oncle: Do `cat /dev/zero > /dev/null &`
<TRS-80>
repeat for how many cores you have
<archetech>
before ya get any cockier remember your board is an ODROID N2 not an ARMBIAN N2
<TRS-80>
that will make a load, so you will need to be prepared to go into htop or top and kill those pids
<TRS-80>
archetech: I don't follow your logic, when most of what Armbian do is about hardware support which is largely board specific?
<TRS-80>
oncle: Only do what I said above if you understand what I am saying and what that will do.
<oncle>
yes, i know a little bit aboud that but not much
<TRS-80>
it's just a suggersion to test fan
<TRS-80>
but maybe search forums, Armbian forums I mean
<TRS-80>
could be some issue, I dunno
<oncle>
okay, I will check this out...
<TRS-80>
I don't know why lanefu ran off, I thought he had something to add
<TRS-80>
anyway, gotta run
<TRS-80>
gn all
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<[TheBug]>
Website maintenance about to begin here momentarily.
<lanefu>
Thanks bug
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<[TheBug]>
Back online!
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<Werner>
AR-123
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-123 [Bug] "OpenHAB2 installation is failing" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2019-12-27. Status: Done
<TRS-80>
--si
<ArmbianHelper>
and [ro~>eng]
<TRS-80>
-- si
<ArmbianHelper>
and [ro~>eng]
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<IgorPec>
good morning
<TRS-80>
mornin
<IgorPec>
morning shift is taking over :)
<TRS-80>
yes
<TRS-80>
:)
<IgorPec>
we had some downtime
<TRS-80>
yes but seems everything came back up on schedule without hiccup
<IgorPec>
yes, almost exactly as planned
<TRS-80>
I mean, what little I can see from user facing stuff (forums) I been on (which is limited, admittedly)
<IgorPec>
when we will be big, we will also mitigate such rare events
<TRS-80>
I think middle of night good enough, forums seem pretty dead anyway
<IgorPec>
ofc. but we took down everything i think
<IgorPec>
yeah. its done
<TRS-80>
What was it? Some datacenter switchover? Or it's classified? :D
<IgorPec>
withing datacenter
<IgorPec>
moving VM to another hw
<IgorPec>
i asume faster
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<IgorPec>
morning Heisath
<Heisath>
Good morning
<Heisath>
I have time again to work on USB2SD mux, it is still not working correctly but I might have found a hint in some app note.
<TRS-80>
o/
<Heisath>
Sorry that it is going so slow, but university has been demanding recently.
<IgorPec>
we have no time limits
<IgorPec>
don't worry about that. Its the same as our software. Its done when its done :)=
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<Heisath>
It just makes me said. The day would need 36 hours so I got get everything done I want to ...
<IgorPec>
i know the feeling
<TRS-80>
gn gang
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<ArmbianTwitter>
@armbian (armbian): @svenoone Not anymore, fixed. Thanks! (15s ago)
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<ArmbianTwitter>
@aanalmadani (aanalmadani 🍥): finally i have my own mini server lesssgoooo!!! #armbian #arm64 https://t.co/4ZFWiq286K (12s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@DieZuckerbude (Ben Zucker 🍰): @aanalmadani The image you are using is actually community effort based on the work of #Armbian. Their modular build script makes customization comparatively easy. Welcome to the world of servers based on ARM 😃 (4s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@armbian (armbian): RT @cnxsoft: New @orangepixunlong #SBC for #router/headless applications. Orange Pi R1 Plus SBC features Rockchip RK3328 processor, 1GB RAM… (15s ago)
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<lanefu>
why does xunlong fuck everything up by 1 detail
<Werner>
Software support?
<lanefu>
2 details
<lanefu>
lol
<Werner>
^^
<lanefu>
that R1 plus..... if it had eMMC
<lanefu>
it would be good
<Werner>
I go for the R4S. Has 4GB and USB3
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<IgorPec>
yeah, emmc would be the thing here
<IgorPec>
SPI flash is there, so net booting is probably doable
<IgorPec>
on R2S you need to solder it
<lanefu>
yeah its enough for squeeze tiny WRT build
<lanefu>
but we dont have a 4MB armbian lol
<lanefu>
wh makes R4S?
<IgorPec>
one can boot armbian via network :)
<stipa>
opi's are good on paper, not so in reality :D
<stipa>
it's like yor dealing with a politician
<stipa>
too bad chinese scamn mentality got into serious electronics
<stipa>
her's the awesome board, it's bang for a buck but there's nos software to run it...
<stipa>
right, ok
<stipa>
at least it know's how to get free code that runs on a buggy hardware
<stipa>
of course, if they're not producing those Allwiner chips the're screwed as well in some way
<stipa>
and so on
<stipa>
or
<stipa>
they sell hardware without software and there is no datasheets, that's a winer
<Werner>
lanefu, friendlyarm makes R4S
<stipa>
i hope the're soon be affordable open hardware SBCs
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<ArmbianTwitter>
@hofmannedv (Frank Hofmann): In progress: article that compares #Debian and #Armbian @armbian #tooManyInterestingThingsForADay (7s ago)
<Werner>
compare an operating system against a shell script...
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<lanefu>
IgorPec: yeah i totally wanan boot my router from the network lol
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<[TheBug]>
<stipa> i hope the're soon be affordable open hardware SBCs -- problem is it's like that diagram for good, cheap fast.. You can have it open source and affordable but it will be slower than chips or lack all usable features -- you can have it expensive and good but it won't be very fast, you can have fast and good but it sure won't be cheap (affordable)..
<[TheBug]>
s/expensive and good/expensive and fast
<ArmbianHelper>
[TheBug] meant to say: <stipa> i hope the're soon be affordable open hardware SBCs -- problem is it's like that diagram for good, cheap fast.. You can have it open source and affordable but it will be slower than chips or lack all usable features -- you can have it expensive and fast but it won't be very fast, you can have fast and good but it sure won't be cheap (affordable)..
<[TheBug]>
s/vary fast/very good
<ArmbianHelper>
Error: Search not found in the last 1000 IRC messages on this network.
<[TheBug]>
haha
<[TheBug]>
anyways
<[TheBug]>
There are some decent open hardware SBCs but because usually the demand turns out to be low because of limited features they also end up also being some of the most expensive -- you have to buy / manufacture in bulk to be able to get 'affordable' and most open source stuff isn't produced in large enough amounts for that to be the case
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<stipa>
[TheBug]: ABC eith open hardware cpu, wifi chip and nic that run Linux could be a desirable item. I have seen some open hardware wifi FPGAs, i think we'll soon be there.
<stipa>
SBC*
<[TheBug]>
I am pretty sure there are a few out there at least that are 'mostly' open source, not sure about entirely -- as in there are boards that I think other than accelerated GPU access via blob have all open source drivers
<[TheBug]>
In fact I think Libre try hard at making mostly open source platforms
<stipa>
it is but there would be no need to go into FPGA and how chips are designed if someone doesn't want to deal with that.
<stipa>
it's the fastest way i guess
<stipa>
to open hardware
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<stipa>
since making custom chips is expensive
<stipa>
[TheBug]: yeah, La Frite SBC has datasheets
<rneese>
its like the cubieboard
<rneese>
the cubie was full opensource
<stipa>
i have now realized that hardware can be open source and software closed as well, my bad
<stipa>
didn't know those are two different things
<stipa>
open source was to me if there is information about registers and stuff
<IgorPec>
all those are open source with close bootloader :)
<IgorPec>
and open source is/can be restricted with licences
<stipa>
i see
<IgorPec>
opening stuff is work of community
<stipa>
i'm starting to make mental picture of what's going on
<IgorPec>
"open source" is like democracy. Everyone is talking about, but its rarely present :)
<stipa>
what is the advantage of having closed source bootloader?
<IgorPec>
ownership, control?
<IgorPec>
but its not just that. critical routines such as 3d / video playing etc. are also usually closed
<stipa>
the good stuff
<[TheBug]>
$$ is the answer in all things stipa
<[TheBug]>
the people who made the IP wants to get PAID
<stipa>
ofcourse
<IgorPec>
yeah, we can say they are protecting their investment
<stipa>
it sure is an investment
<stipa>
but, for example, in all good stable network gear is linux and atheros which has open source drivers which means that Atheros sells, but for some reason some don't get it.
<IgorPec>
open source development is more expensive and everyone profits
<TRS-80>
The people who "made the IP" do get paid. The engineers I mean. But patents and similar nonsense are more about corporations continuing to make money for doing nothing, long after the fact. Which is a form of rent-seeking. The latter concept not even being discussed in "modern" economics courses any more.
<IgorPec>
yeah, patent shit is everywhere
<TRS-80>
Not only that, it is wasteful. You must depend on mfr to release updates, or elso do costly/difficult reverse engineering to figure it out. Which often times does not happen. So things cannot be maintain long term. Which just contibute to people buying new things, but also more unnecessary e-waste. Planned obsolescence, in other words.
<rneese>
How do i go about getting paid
<rneese>
lol
<TRS-80>
I think rneese deserves 200% raise! ;)
<IgorPec>
ok. done :)
<rneese>
200% of 0 is 0
<rneese>
lol
<Werner>
but its still 200% :D
<rneese>
i did get a early xmal present
<IgorPec>
we are working on that
<rneese>
I was very surprised my apple tablet got smashed but I got a Samsung Tab A7 3g/32gig 10.4 tablet
<stipa>
TRS-80: mfr, what's that?
<TRS-80>
manufacturer
<stipa>
oh
<stipa>
rneese: it's a positive zero
<rneese>
?
<rneese>
lol
<TRS-80>
Patents are also mostly used as a way to prevent new competitors entering the field. All the big companies own huge portfolios of patents. There have been some lawsuits, but mostly they make cross licensing deals with one another. However if you want to enter the market as an upstart?! Ha! Good luck... So it is an anti-competition measure, mostly.
<stipa>
TRS-80: enginners have hard time fixing stuff like that as well
<TRS-80>
exactly
<TRS-80>
Do you know why rms started GNU project? It is very famous story, but maybe you did not hear it yet.
<stipa>
TRS-80:i have no ide
<stipa>
idea*
<TRS-80>
anyone? :)
<lanefu>
because they made him set a password in the lab
<TRS-80>
lanefu: No, although he was against that, too.
<TRS-80>
It was because he was trying to fix the printer, and ran into proprietary blobs or maybe it was only licensing restrictions, don't remember which now.
<TRS-80>
Which makes it not so dissimilar to work Armbian devs do today, in fact.
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<stipa>
printers are full of proprietary chips
<stipa>
no wonder he got mad
<stipa>
went*
<TRS-80>
Well this was back in early 80s probably, in MIT computer lab, I dunno if same or not then.
<stipa>
maybe we could find aout from a picture of a board from the printer of that era.
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<stipa>
guys are now throwing chips for the seventies into acid
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<stipa>
parts for that stuff he's fixing are non obtanium so he has some clever tricks to fix very old stuff
<TRS-80>
Yeah I bet
<TRS-80>
That video I shared a while back, of the guy extensive electronics component collection, also had a lot of old parts. Speculation was he must have fixed old equipment, too. Or just had some compulsion, perhaps.
<TRS-80>
stipa: This looks interesting, I put it on my watch list, thanks.
<stipa>
i guess the guy from the video you posted a while ago was in a music recording, those were tubes mostly in his shed.
<stipa>
and i saw studio constructio in there
<stipa>
wild guess
<TRS-80>
Well, if equipment he was working on was before IC era... But maybe you are right (because studio).
<stipa>
yeah, tubes are popular even nowdays in that sphere
<TRS-80>
right
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<TRS-80>
Where do we submit testimonials? :)
<IgorPec>
for ?
<IgorPec>
for the entry page?
<TRS-80>
yeah I came across maybe a good one in forums
<TRS-80>
Hate to sound like a broken record but Armbian on this old android box is slick and very powerful. I just did a Plex stress test and played a movie on all the tablets and Fire-sticks I had laying around in the house. I had 5 concurrent streams going with zero issues. Our content is older movie dvd backup rips so bandwidth per stream is between 4-5 MB/s. All Plex clients are wirelessly attached
<TRS-80>
to the ISP provided Wi-Fi router/modem but I didn't meet any limitation there either. I am still trying to wrap my head around this. This little box draws 5v at 2 amp max? I know to say 10watt does not include conversion in-efficiency but that is still simply amazing.
* TRS-80
just now reaching top of All Activity stream, from picking up where last left off yesterday
<TRS-80>
late last night, in fact, not even full day
<IgorPec>
i can't follow up things
<TRS-80>
I realize, I have been spending almost like part time job just trying to
<IgorPec>
yeah. its huge
<TRS-80>
you must just be picking out like 1-2 things per day to try and snipe out from the fire hose stream
<TRS-80>
or few, whatever
<IgorPec>
yeah, nothing more. but i am anyway focused on development
<TRS-80>
right
<IgorPec>
user support is optional
<TRS-80>
I try and fill in, as most things are dumb questions anyway, people simply not reading, etc.
<TRS-80>
in other words, things even I can answer :D
<IgorPec>
now imagine supporting rpi :)
<IgorPec>
and their crowd
<TRS-80>
no fucking thanks
<IgorPec>
hehe
<TRS-80>
I came here largely becuase you guys were not drinking the RPi kool aid
<[TheBug]>
TRS-80: are you suggesting a 'fuckless' thanks would be welcome then?
<TRS-80>
IgorPec: a breath of fresh air
<IgorPec>
"rpi free zone"
<[TheBug]>
because I would guess thats about what most RPi users are willing to give ;Z
<TRS-80>
[TheBug]: it's interesting glimpse into your mind the terms you choose to key in on
<[TheBug]>
mah, my mind burdens me with unfunny comdey constantly, sometimes some of it escapes through my fingers before I have a chance to filter it..
<ArmbianTwitter>
@armbian (armbian): @UDOO_Board Supported by Armbian since 2013 - #LTS :) https://t.co/5XmleYwXds (15s ago)
<TRS-80>
Should have sticky about this somewhere. Or maybe in docs. Anyway, there are both technical and philosophical objections.
<TRS-80>
Both mainy relate to their locked down bootloader / RTOS / GPU which is completely proprietary and running the show, instead of the OS you thought was doing so.
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<forest[m]>
But don't you get the same experience on any other SBC ?
<TRS-80>
All the while rifing the current wave / popularity of open source, whilst being actually nothing of the sort.
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: No. There may be few bits of blobs here and there, for particular hardware, but you can in many cases live without them, depending. Also some boards can be gotten to work fully in freedom.
<TRS-80>
s/rifing/riding/
<ArmbianHelper>
TRS-80 meant to say: All the while riding the current wave / popularity of open source, whilst being actually nothing of the sort.
<forest[m]>
to be fair they sort of started the whole SBC craze tho, right? at the time I don't think that they saw the demand for fast & concurrent IO coming
<TRS-80>
I made a topic about this back in 2019, but tbh I should follow up on, add current data, etc. But only so many of us really care about freedom, after all. ;)
<forest[m]>
I definitely really care
<forest[m]>
I was under the impression that raspberry Pi, hardkernel, firefly, rock pi, etc were all fairly similar in that it takes blobs to boot it and more blobs to do stuff with it
<ArmbianTwitter>
@A13_technology (∆13🏳️🌈): @armbian @UDOO_Board And hopefully for a long time in the future 😉 (29s ago)
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: I am not interested in being fair to a company like Broadcom who have been famously hostile towards F/LOSS for just about as long as I can remember. It's all business for them. Maybe you are right, they underestimated, but it was never about F/LOSS as many peopl think it is, which is one of main objections along with their annoying fanboys who think RPi is greatest thing ever and can
<TRS-80>
do no wrong. Also they lock threads and ban people on their forums like tkaiser and others who ask questions and do not drink the kool aid.
<forest[m]>
lol
<forest[m]>
questions like "why u no open source boot"
<forest[m]>
?
<IgorPec>
why open? :)
<IgorPec>
we have millions of customers
<forest[m]>
I would be really interested in collecting a list of SBCs that have fast CPUs, lots of ram, ethernet on board, and can run without blobs or as few blobs as possible
<forest[m]>
turn it into the suggest hardware list for my project :D
<forest[m]>
* turn it into the suggested hardware list for my project :D
<IgorPec>
we would have that property at our download pages if someone would take care of it
<forest[m]>
I know there are rk3399 based laptops that can run great with 100% open source software/firmware
<c0rnelius>
everything uses blobs or something proprietary to some degree. even ur x86_64
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: That's propbably what most people think. Some boards require blobs sure, but some don't. But that's just normal situation as with many other hardware drivers in Linux. However none of those others really lock down the bootloader to the same extent like what Broadcom do. They go above and beyond. And have not relented from this one bit. All the while doing BS PR stunts like
<TRS-80>
releasing "open source" graphics driver which in reality is only a stub and still depend completely on their blobs in reality. It's all so tiresome...
<IgorPec>
yep
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: If you start a thread, that will probably motivate me to contribute what I know, and keep the thread going.
<IgorPec>
and not just that. open source can have many licence constrains.
<IgorPec>
even code its there, its not free
<forest[m]>
> They go above and beyond. And have not relented from this one bit. All the while doing BS PR stunts
<forest[m]>
argh. that sucks. I was planning on recommending the pi 4 too >.<
<c0rnelius>
and don't diff countries have diff views on code in general? like copy righting bash script for example? as its required.
<TRS-80>
OK, Copyright 101 incoming for c0rnelius and anyone else who is interested. ;)
<forest[m]>
I can't recommend it if there are better alternatives which are more FLOSS friendly on the boot and firmware side
<forest[m]>
* I can't recommend it if there are reasonable alternatives which are more FLOSS friendly on the boot and firmware side
<c0rnelius>
TRS-80: :)
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: Almost any mfr is more F/LOSS friendly. Maybe now you understand a bit more our objections.
<forest[m]>
Cool, thanks, I will actually do that! where do you think would be the appropriate place ?
<forest[m]>
> If you start a thread, that will probably motivate me to contribute what I know, and keep the thread going.
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: General Chit Chat I guess?
<c0rnelius>
I don't see the big hate on broadcom. they such just as much as amlogic in that department as far as boot is concerned.
<c0rnelius>
suck*
<c0rnelius>
and most the boards running amlogic socs as a media player are all using old vendor kernels
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: My hate for them goes way back before RPi. They had to be sued to release sources for GPL stuff they used in wrt54g series of routers. Which was one of biggest early wins for F/LOSS licensing in court. If you ever wondered why there were so much better community project router software available for those back in the day, now you know why. ;)
<c0rnelius>
TRS-80: well I'm for sure not familiar with the router affair I will be the first to admit :D
<TRS-80>
OK, now Copyright 101. First standard disclaimer, IANAL, etc. However the most important thing to understand is that by default anything you release is Copyrighted. Creator retains all rights. And this is true almost everywhere in the world today. Which is why it's so important to publish a license with anything you release. Because otherwise, no one can really actually use it, legally
<TRS-80>
speaking.
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: In case earlier Broadcom story was not clear, they were useing GPL code in their product (Linux, etc.) and absolutely refused to release it. We had to get out the pitchforks. They had to be sued and ordered by a court of law to release their sources, because they were built on top of other GPL stuff. Which should tell you how much of assholes they are. And also, why Copyleft is such
<TRS-80>
an important concept.
<c0rnelius>
I've looked this up and when it comes to simple scripting there is no legit reason to have to copyright it within the US.
<c0rnelius>
I know in some other countries it's kind of like forced upon you in some kind of way.
* stipa
had wrt54gs
<c0rnelius>
But the need to claim absolute ownership over something as simple as a script I believe is not necessary.
<c0rnelius>
That would be like me writing a note and then putting a copyright on it
<TRS-80>
Please understand what the letter of the law is very seldom has anything to do with what makes sense or even necessarily is morally right. lol None of that changes the facts about what the laws actually are.
<c0rnelius>
It would just be a laughable joke
<TRS-80>
In your example, even simple note you write, you absolutely own copyright to that, by default, without needing to take any further action.
<c0rnelius>
Like even as a musician for example I can have ownership of the music I write but not ownership of the recording I made that was released under said record label.
<c0rnelius>
I still retain the rights to my music I just don't retain the rights to that song as it was recorded and released
<TRS-80>
yes but that's because at some point they signed something which transferred those rights
<c0rnelius>
Now I could still rerecord it somewhere else and re-release it
<c0rnelius>
Yeah copyrights
<TRS-80>
or they are under recording controact, or whatever
<TRS-80>
exactly
<stipa>
ha ha
<stipa>
that shit is so confusing
<stipa>
even governemnts dont wanna hava anything with music copyrights
<stipa>
anything to do*
<c0rnelius>
But how many of that pertains really to me writing a script or a letter and then me saying this is now been copyright written and is the ownership of I is just a bit ridiculous. Especially once released to the public in Plainview.
<c0rnelius>
Now maybe if you put that script in a book and that book was published under a particular copyright and released by a particular publisher that would be a bit of a different story.
<stipa>
you can stea lscript and yopryght it and it'll be yours
<stipa>
if original ownedr didn't do it
<stipa>
that's how law works
<stipa>
no i didn't steal it, he stole it from me
<stipa>
here, i have a proof, it's copyrighted
<stipa>
so, if you don't want to deal with thieves it would be smart to copyright even a woord just in case
<c0rnelius>
I mean I'll say straight up and I haven't read every journal on the subject and I'm definitely not a lawyer that is involved in anything concerning copyrights but I'm pretty sure it varies from country to country
<TRS-80>
Which is why, all these "no license" people, while I respect their principles and in a way agree with them, I am afraid they are being foolish with regard to what the law actually says.
<c0rnelius>
Yeah well the law is what is actually going on where they live right if I'm not mistaken
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<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: Of course it's ridiculous. Many things which are the law, are ridiculous. That does not make them any less of laws. ;)
<c0rnelius>
So in their country they can be held accountable by what was written down where in our country or in America anyway you're not necessarily held to account for it.
<TRS-80>
stipa: I think you missed my whole point, by default, everything is already copyright
<rneese>
TRS-80, you said you where going for eggnox and booze and looking at xmas lights get out
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: Almost all countries follow American-style "IP" laws nowadays. What do you think "trade agreements" are actually about? ;)
<c0rnelius>
So like people on Twitter who just say the dumbest things and spew a lot of hate speech is that now copywritten?
<rneese>
all trade agreements cancled
<TRS-80>
rneese: Those were suggestions for lanefu to do something besides "computering." :)
<c0rnelius>
I mean they wrote it
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: I guess that would depend what it actually says in the fine print when you sign up for such sites (which no one probably read ofc)?
<rneese>
i went and git turkry beaan soup and tea and hot coocoo
<rneese>
for dinner
<TRS-80>
rneese: comfy :)
<rneese>
my friend made it and told me to come get some
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: However, other than whatever you "agree" to when signing up to those services, yes that would all be copyrighted otherwise.
<TRS-80>
rneese: Awesome! Good friend! :)
<c0rnelius>
Yeah the letter of the law is pretty dumb.
<TRS-80>
I agree
<rneese>
internet law is useless
<rneese>
with out proof
<TRS-80>
far too many people put faith in that, mostly blindly ofc
<c0rnelius>
I'll just be the first to admit I find it hilarious when I see a copyright inside of a bash script.
<c0rnelius>
I mean I don't care what people do it's just something I find a bit of silly to see. Could just simply put your name on there. Written by I.
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<forest[m]>
hey TRS-80 I just saw your thread about self-hosting on SBCs, this is actually exactly what I'm working on !
<forest[m]>
trying to make a project that makes it so ez even non-tech ppl can do it
<c0rnelius>
Well there you go copywriting things again
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<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: :p
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: I think there are already some projects like that. Have you considered contributing to those, instead?
<c0rnelius>
Like I used to do a lot of theming for xfce back in the day. And people would ask me to Port themes over to xfwm. So I would give the original author of said theme credit and then just put ported by me.
<forest[m]>
> think there are already some projects like that. Have you considered contributing to those, instead?
<forest[m]>
I have, but I have never found anything that gets close to what I believe is required
<c0rnelius>
And as time went on somebody else would then port it again but use my port for their port and then put their name on it
<stipa>
c0rnelius: there are people that just use SBC's with stolen code and earn money with it, people copyright scripts in case of that, if someoone earns money without giving them some...
<c0rnelius>
So names just kept growing on it
<forest[m]>
> there are already some projects like that
<forest[m]>
like which? I think of NextCloud, FreedomBox, YunoHost
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: I'm glad you mention giving credit. Which is not only good manners, but actually is recognized in the law. These are called "moral rights" and are separate from the ownership rights. In example you gave earlier, recored contract, artist is still recognized as artist, even if Record Co. own the rights to the music (or whatever).
<forest[m]>
I think I'm aiming at 1 layer higher than for example, freedombox and yunohost
<c0rnelius>
Yeah but I could just take your script remove that line and okay now what? Change this change that prove it?
<stipa>
c0rnelius: yeahm, but moron who could steal it doesn't know how to delete that
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: Yeah, those were the ones I had in mind. What did you have in mind you wanted to do different?
<c0rnelius>
True
<forest[m]>
What I am building is more like a GUI install wizard that helps you prepare and install something like yunohost . Also, it comes with a cloud-based network tunnel capability so the user does not have to be able to or know how to configure their router
<forest[m]>
I am also planning on building a cloud service to accompany it
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<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: In a practical sense you are not wrong of course. This stuff only really matters in big stuff worth lots of money like Linux which have already been involved in a number of legal battles. For little scripts, chances of that are extremely slim.
<c0rnelius>
yeah and thats all I'm talking about
<c0rnelius>
lil scripts
<c0rnelius>
nothing that's gonna change the world or anything
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: I mean, you are going to have your work cut out for you, is all. Some times it's better to throw your weight in with others. Which is why I contribute to Armbian. But the project has to fit for you. If you have strong vision of doing something different, there may be no stopping you. I know that itch and make few projects of my own even where there are other solutions. So... yeah
<TRS-80>
:)
<forest[m]>
And luckily for me I was able to make a lot of money working in software and maintain a 70+% savings rate for several years.. so at this point I quit my job and I have a lot of time to work on it
<forest[m]>
I'm trying to be patient and go one step at a time, try to stay on target, and aim for minimum viable product first, just to demonstrate what I believe is important can be done, that it is possible, even if what I made is not perfect
<forest[m]>
I will make a big reply about it in your thread.
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: (re: change world) You never know. ;) Which is why it's important to cover your bases from beginning. And also way to show your support for GPL and Free Software. It was very satisfying adding that commit where I put the license in. FeelsGoodMan.jpg ;)
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: Maybe make new thread about your project, as I think that is separate enough idea from the general "homelab" idea.
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<TRS-80>
forest[m]: Also, are you me? I have been off "work" for like 1 yr now. Going back soon though...
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<forest[m]>
> make new thread about your project
<forest[m]>
hehe, yeah... I'm not quite ready for that yet
<forest[m]>
I keep telling myself I need to have a proper website, build that folks can try out for themselves, and demo before I try to make a splash
<TRS-80>
forest[m]: But I am really interested to discuss your idea further, so please do make a thread. You will also get some advivce from others maybe this way.
<forest[m]>
* > make new thread about your project
<forest[m]>
I keep telling myself I need to have a proper website, builds that folks can try out for themselves, and demo before I try to make a splash
<forest[m]>
hehe, yeah... I'm not quite ready for that yet
<TRS-80>
probably not tonight though, dinner soon
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<forest[m]>
I guess earlier is probably better, even though its all very rough right now
<TRS-80>
I have all sort of projects in all sort of places
<TRS-80>
s/places/stages/
<ArmbianHelper>
TRS-80 meant to say: I have all sort of projects in all sort of stages
<TRS-80>
I thought to put one up even though it's just idea. It makes a place for people to converge on said idea.
<c0rnelius>
TRS-80: I haven't put a license in any of my hubs yet. mostly cuz I feel like... well? I'm pulling in shit already under the GPL so by default is it not kinda under that license? all my tools are, the code written is freely available already?
<c0rnelius>
I much further shall I go? other than stamp it with my name, which seems pointless as it already on the hub.
<c0rnelius>
how*
<TRS-80>
c0rnelius: You know, that's interesting, never thought about that. Again, IANAL but I think you should clearly license "your own stuff on top" or at least include the GPL as you say it's required anyway. But making it more explicit I think does not hurt anything.
<c0rnelius>
so its just kinda like what the fuck and people can just fork anything a do and do whatever anyway
<TRS-80>
I would (in fact, I do) follow instructions at FSF I linked, but that's just me.
<c0rnelius>
I'm just on the fence about it.
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<TRS-80>
Then go to FSF and read more arguments about. I did not come to current viewpoints by plucking them out from the air around me. ;)
<stipa>
c0rnelius: follow your heart
<c0rnelius>
I guess if I wrote full blown program I would for sure slap a license on it. But scripting that is already using tools clearly licensed and software.
<c0rnelius>
I just don't see the point
<TRS-80>
OTOH I like to promote GPL, which is why I even put logo on landing page / readme of my projects. ;) So I go above and beyond.
<TRS-80>
your project, you do what you want though
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<TRS-80>
dinner / family time, glad c0rnelius had enough for now because I gotta go :p