Werner changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | Forums Feed: #armbian-rss | Development Talk: #armbian-devel | Type 'help' for help | Logs: -> irc.armbian.com
<archetech> like tose it happen didnt mean soon
<archetech> if it dont oh well
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<rneese> so whats going on here
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<Tony_mac32> I had day job work until 2:30 AM last night. :'(
<Tony_mac32> so was not on at all
<Tony_mac32> :)
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<Werner> Good morning
<Werner> lanefu, seriously. I dont know what I did wrong...
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<IgorPec> good morning
<Werner> Good morning
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<ArmbianTwitter> @armbian (armbian): @cypresstwist Just a little bit better hardware with eMMC and better OS that deals with flash media much better and corruption wont happen that easily. Or having SD card just for boot and rootfs on serious hardware NFS share ... (30s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter> @armbian (armbian): @stankowic_devel @cypresstwist Serious single board computers have all this for many years, mSATA and eMMC since around 2014, M2 little later ... RPi is a proprietary video player by design where such extensions are not needed. If you use it for other things is perhaps improper use case? (28s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter> @cypresstwist (Razvan T. Coloja): @armbian I have another 9 node cluster made out of RPi 3B+'s and I bought 16GB SSDs for each. Made them boot from SSDs and the difference is awesome. But I also have this 4 node blade cluster that so far boots off of MicroSD cards. Will get SSD drives for this one too. (1s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter> @stankowic_devel (Christian Stankowic): @armbian @cypresstwist Yeah, you might be right that the initial design scope was a different. On the other hand - it's a very common device for sensors, various add-on shields, etc. A device's purpose can change and I think Eben Upton sees this. There was a discussion about NVMe on the Pi 4 CM. (8s ago)
<Werner> "They can do this by editing your alternate contact in the client area and selecting the appropriate Invision Community license from the dropdown.". Already had a chance to check if that actually works? IgorPec
<ArmbianTwitter> @armbian (armbian): @cypresstwist In the Range of RPi3 but better, cheaper, faster, well supported https://t.co/NcgKVSxQ4U but today it would probably be best to use RK3399 for doing clusters. It has PCI (also usually eMMC) for reliable storage and CPU power on the level of RPi4. Also well supported. (30s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter> @cypresstwist (Razvan T. Coloja): @armbian I'm partial to the Raspberry Pi. Might be habit or fanboy-ism. As for RPi3 I solved the MicroSD problem in the past with cheap 16GB SSDs. They work beautifully. https://t.co/eO3FxC4bn2 (28s ago)
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<HerculeP> rneese> I think if others want to help with lxde/mate/gnome/kde they are welcome <- eg me (odroidc2)
<HerculeP> would be nice to be able to get it from ..armbian/dl/odroidc2/nightly/ or similar
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<Werner> .tvboxes
<ArmbianHelper> Armbian does not officially support TV boxes of any kind. All topics and images you may find are community contributions.
<Werner> @Aureal
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<Aureal> ok
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<ikmaak> martinayotte, IgorPec: the issue with the pine64so is that when not used in the baseboard but the clusterboard, it needs an overlay to make eth function. if the overlay file is present it could just be a change in armbianenv.txt. If not applied it will become unresponsive after every update so needs armbian pkgs frozen
<ikmaak> likely it is best to add an overlay in stead of a complete dtb
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<wooster> heyo, i've got my tinkerboard S legacy OS building with armbian but i can't seem to get a splash screen to show up when booting. i was able to do it with plymouth on raspi but i'm pretty stumped about how to do it for the tinkerboard
<wooster> couldn't find people really reporting anything working on the forums https://tinkerboarding.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php/thread-1321-3.html
<rneese> i dont know that the 3 is well supported yet I know the tinker is but not about tinker s
<rneese> it might still need work
<wooster> i'll try enquiring on https://tinker-board.asus.com/
<rneese> they have nothing to do with rmbian os and the linux kernel we patch the kernel when needed
<rneese> so it a matter of tracking the issue and figuriing out the patch
<rneese> but we are limited on how much we can do as we work on so many boaards
<rneese> so best I can say is start looking and learnign and read the code and try to figure out things and commit it baack when you can
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<rneese> ok the tinker and tinkers are the same except they added emmc to the board
<rneese> 16 gig and I dont think the dtb haas the emmc in the dtb yet
<rneese> so the dtb would need moded
<rneese> it also may need a few more fixes
<lanefu> Werner: rneese IgorPec FYI I'm behind on some other stuff and trying to catch up on that..s o might be a few days before i get back to armbian things
<IgorPec> wooster: boot splash is enabled by default on all desktop builds. just try one
<IgorPec> lanefu: sure
<IgorPec> i am also quite a bit out of sync :)
<rneese> no lanefu
<rneese> IgorPec, just a bit lol
<rneese> heheh
<rneese> jk
<Werner> Okay, thanks for info lane
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<IgorPec> werner: we need to add that ip to firewall, right?
<Werner> IgorPec, No. The access seems totally fine. They could not have fixed the forum twice in the meantime if the access would be non-functional
<martinayotte> ikmaak, IgorPec: is this overlay already exist in armbian ? was it also required with previous u-boot ?
<lanefu> IgorPec: port 22 is open on stuff, just has fail2ban enabled
<IgorPec> aha, so they could reach it ... fine then
<ikmaak> it did not exist in armbian before, as far as i know. yes, it has always been required
<IgorPec> martinayotte: i think not
<Werner> IgorPec, the remaining task for you would be checking the setting within your client area at invision the support mentioned.
<ikmaak> as far as i know it was just a given that you had to freeze armbian, or use a script that does not actually work unchanged anymore
<wooster> igorpec: maybe that's my problem, i have BUILD_DESKTOP="no"
<wooster> i install xorg etc myself but didn't think i needed the whole desktop build thing enabled
<martinayotte> ikmaak: are you able to participate to provide such overlay and do required testing ?
<ikmaak> i need to find out how the overlays work, but testing is what i will be doing anyway
<ikmaak> but the link offered the one line change
<ikmaak> it needs 'allwinner,tx-delay-ps = <500>;' added to the definition of the 'ethernet@1c30000' entry
<IgorPec> wooster: that certainly is the problem
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<IgorPec> wooster: check /boot/armbianEnv.txrt
<IgorPec> there is bootlogo enable/dis yes/no 1/0 or something
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<wooster> building now, will check it. thanks!
<ikmaak> lol, it was false/true, there is always one that escapes :P
<wooster> says bootlogo=false
<IgorPec> ohj :)
<wooster> so to configure one, i should copy a bmp to /boot and add the path to bootlogo=?
<IgorPec> you want your logo? haha
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<wooster> well my client's yes
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<Heisath> Hello there
<IgorPec> hey man!
<Werner> Hi
<ikmaak> i am very unclear about making the overlay.
<wooster> igorpec: cheers
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<ikmaak> i am not sure, but does the 'allwinner,tx-delay-ps = <500>;' line just ask the ethernet init to wait? if that is the case it could even be asked to retry init if it does not succeed at first?
<ikmaak> then clusterboard would not need an overlay at all
<rneese> igore I did fix the list on dde lastnight I removed the meta files and took the list from the meta and removed the wallpapers from the install
<ikmaak> if it means to delay network setup by 0,5s it would likely not even be an issue to delay boot on the baseboard...
<rneese> wrong window
<IgorPec> ikmaak: those timings are usually means if nic will go up or not
<IgorPec> or it will work well or poorly
<IgorPec> and its related to the pyhsical world
<ikmaak> but does it mean the init will be delayed, or all comm? that sounds strange
<IgorPec> don't know exactly
<ikmaak> if it is all comm it would increase ping :) i do not notice any of this
<IgorPec> this is below tcpip
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<IgorPec> not on protocol level
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<ikmaak> i will try to get someone that has the baseboard to confirm the functionality with the edit to the dtb
<emOne> hello what happened to Balbes. Is he mad?
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<IgorPec> emOne: :) we don't support tvboxes and obviously he has enough of you too :)
<IgorPec> ikmaak: i don't have any of this pine hw
<emOne> What do you mean that he obviously has enough of me?
<ikmaak> i have the clusterboard here
<ikmaak> sadly the irc for pine is currently down...
<emOne> IgorPec am I the only one that cares about TV boxes or something?
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<IgorPec> well, i would instantly go mad
<IgorPec> if we start to deal with this
<IgorPec> its not about caring but capacity we have
<Heisath> ikmaak, 'allwinner,tx-delay-ps = <500>;' this would introduce some delay on transmit. From the name I would think it is 500 pico seconds (tx-delay-PS)
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<ikmaak> Heisath: any transmit, or just the initial?
<rneese> as it is now some of the boards that hit eol are still in the support and not shure how many people still iuse or have them but the system builds imgs and they have to be patched when they break
<rneese> if you look at the list of over 100 boards uspported now
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<Heisath> Any transmit. It is on hardware level probably to sync rx and tx. Might be because of different line length or some other hardware delay. But pico second is really short
<rneese> its alot
<emOne> That is fair IgorPec
<emOne> I was a bit surprised by this "In all new versions of images and the kernel, I will add various security mechanisms that will create serious problems, including hardware problems and hardware failure."
<IgorPec> eol boards are not problematic since most of them are left in good shape and there is little to no pressure from people
<IgorPec> i can't waste hours daily to persuidate people - how things they want - are totally out of the scale
<emOne> It doesn't actually seem like there is a lot of demand for armbian on TV boxes
<emOne> I understand the issue
<IgorPec> emOne: his expresions are weird sometimes since he knows english little to nothing
<IgorPec> bottom line - i don't know why he decided this and TBH I don't care
<emOne> I could ask him in Russian
<IgorPec> that might be the way
<IgorPec> for one person to handle this, its insane lot of demand, believeme
<emOne> Ohh yes absolutely
<emOne> Well it was nice testing his images while he still supported them
<emOne> Frustrating too, but it also brought a lot of hope
<IgorPec> its the same as for us. just demands and almost no help.
<emOne> See you everybody. I will lurk in the forums :)
<ikmaak> i hope i am not seen as making demands :)
<IgorPec> ofc you are
<emOne> It is hard to help if we're not told what to test
<IgorPec> testing is automatic :)
<emOne> I am sure a lot of users would love to beta test
<IgorPec> yes, but we have no resources to fix bugs you report
<IgorPec> which is why we don't even bother to record them
<ikmaak> well, then i hope i am seen as helpful and friendly while making my demand :)
<redentor> emOne, lot of users ? or only you ?
<emOne> I would hope there are more users around..
<IgorPec> users or people that help?
<emOne> Both
<IgorPec> we have too many users
<wooster> not the worst problem in the world to have
<emOne> I would love to join a coding team
<emOne> If that is what you're getting at
<IgorPec> emOne: that would certainly help!
<emOne> I wouldn't mind writing documentation either
<IgorPec> and its also not just coding. its overall things
<emOne> I have noticed that the basics are still missing regarding documentation
<emOne> Starting with device tree compilation
<IgorPec> this kind of project is probably never perfect ... and also its changing
<IgorPec> AR-235
<ArmbianHelper> AR-235 [Story] "Implement Device Tree Editor" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2020-05-07. Status: To Do
<ikmaak> but it enables a lot of cool projects, thanks to all for that!
<emOne> It is hard for people to help when documentation is missing too
<IgorPec> we help people way way too much
<IgorPec> but i agree better docs would help both
<emOne> Maybe a Kickstarter can be set up for funding?
<emOne> After all coding takes time
<IgorPec> you need a serious organisation to to do that
<IgorPec> to no work for free, we would need 3.000 EUR per day. Who will pay that?
<emOne> I have seen people use Kickstarter for Linux open source projects
<IgorPec> start. i don't know what to do anywaay
<IgorPec> i never did that
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<IgorPec> we have our own system for rasing cash - tied to forum
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<emOne> IgorPec coding drivers in C is not what a lot of people are good at
<emOne> It is a very unique skill in 2020
<IgorPec> i am aware of that.
<IgorPec> just our dear users are not :)
<rneese> thats because kids have gotten laxy and forgotten how to learn
<rneese> and they want money for doing nothing
<ikmaak> i want to make my improvement to simplify the documentation for the pine wiki. if you would want me to doc it for armbian as well, i am willing
<emOne> Back when Personal computers were just hobby projects I would bet that people thought that coders were some kids that wanted money for doing nothing
<emOne> But I do understand the sentiment
<emOne> The ipad generation is quite different
<IgorPec> yep. still are young people doing this low level engineering
<IgorPec> so its hard to judge this, but yeah, most of people are * on "rails"
<emOne> Perhaps there are less low level engineers now because so called coders make apps with HTML and a minimal amount of js
<emOne> True Igor
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<IgorPec> that requrie different skill set, low level is more about signals and electronics
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<IgorPec> at least you have to understand the principles. for html you don't need much of an outside world
<IgorPec> its pure digital
<emOne> Could it be that some open source projects are held back because of the way the financing is structured?
<emOne> Arm now supports panfrost
<emOne> Google is funding video decoding drivers and they're not prioritising HEVC for example, or so I am told
<IgorPec> when development is at 90% and they have no other choice?
<IgorPec> corporaations have their own agenda
<IgorPec> its in busines interest first
<emOne> I understand
<emOne> But perhaps this is where Kickstarter can help to fund projects that businesses don't care about?
<IgorPec> i don't know. Can you spent time to organise kickstarter campaign?
<emOne> I don't know. I am just throwing ideas out there
<IgorPec> and put let's say for 5000 EUR costs on the table
<IgorPec> and who will drive ideas? :)
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<IgorPec> its you and me and few people that listen. that's itr
<emOne> Driving ideas is important
<IgorPec> other are here to fix their own problems
<IgorPec> with help of this project.
<IgorPec> you need time.
<IgorPec> to drive anything
<IgorPec> development costs us ... numbers i put out back
<IgorPec> developing kickstarter or just anything is project
<emOne> A big Kickstarter campaign can be advertised on the forum
<emOne> If a lot of people use armbian I am sure they would be happy to put money up for the project
<IgorPec> i will wait for its resoults
<emOne> You also have the raspberry pi crowd and I am sure they would love this idea too
<emOne> After all that is where everyone started with their first arm based Linux board
<IgorPec> this is how our reality looks like. lots of ideas but no resources to drive them
<IgorPec> you need to make a marketing campaign and drive it. otherwise nobody will even notice
<IgorPec> and for that you need lets say another 5.000 EUR
<emOne> A campaign for a campaign
<IgorPec> yes, exactly
<IgorPec> even we all work for free
<IgorPec> voolonteer
<IgorPec> then if we made a campaign on amateur level, we might not even get this back
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<emOne> If I had the money to fund a team I would do it without a doubt
<emOne> But it there is no way around it but to make a campaign to find funding
<IgorPec> make it
<emOne> But there
<emOne> Yes
<IgorPec> covering expenses is the easiest part
<emOne> How big is the core team that contributes?
<emOne> How much money would be needed?
<IgorPec> depeends to do what?
<IgorPec> to not get crazy we would need several full timers
<emOne> To have an armbian OS that works across a range of ARM devices without an issue
<IgorPec> we decided to stop developing
<emOne> Hunger strike?
<IgorPec> yes, why not
<IgorPec> going down to the average linux distro
<emOne> :) agree with that
<IgorPec> which takes other work, mix it and sell it
<emOne> I don't think there is anything bad about that per se because that is how the open source license works
<emOne> As long as the person who takes the work fixes bugs or adds features
<emOne> And contributes them back into the code
<emOne> That is in the license agreement
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<emOne> Wouldn't you agree?
<IgorPec> they don't do that
<IgorPec> most of them sadly doesn't fix bufs
<IgorPec> this is how it suppose to be in ideal world
<emOne> The problem if they don't fix bugs is that they will have a bad product
<emOne> And that will give the end user a worse experience
<emOne> Sooner or later
<IgorPec> nobody cares about the quality
<IgorPec> or very little TBH
<IgorPec> quality is that most expensive part
<IgorPec> i think one way is to put more pressure to support
<emOne> I think a strike is not a bad idea
<IgorPec> to force people to have a contract before start wasting timew
<emOne> The work you guys do is hard work and very intellectual work
<emOne> A contract is good yes
<IgorPec> support is why i am telling people to fu* off
<IgorPec> lazyingess and disrespect
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<IgorPec> Werner: i see now what i have missed
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<IgorPec> fixed
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<Werner> Okay, let me see
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<Werner> Did you hit the edit button?
<IgorPec> yes
<IgorPec> and add "Purchases forum"
<IgorPec> that was not added before
<IgorPec> "The user will be able to see the selected purchases and support requests related to them. "
<IgorPec> this was missing. there nothing else beside this. any you are allowed to ask for support and pay the invocice
<Werner> "They can do this by editing your alternate contact in the client area and selecting the appropriate Invision Community license from the dropdown."
<IgorPec> yes, that i did
<Werner> Okay. I'll ask them for either a fix or a more clear explanation how to do that.
<IgorPec> i add you "forum" licence without "commerce"
<IgorPec> added commerce as well
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<Werner> Did not change anything. I go reach out to the support again and get back to you
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<Werner> I dont
<Heisath> Or the other mouse pad? I am curious what kind of surface it has.
<ikmaak> the 'Bank transfer donations' email form seems not to work atm. could someone pm me the bank info?
<Werner> I have a coffee mug and its surface is smooth :)
<Werner> ikmaak, whats wrong with the form?
<IgorPec> ikmaak: strange ... that's why we have no donations :)
<ikmaak> 'There was an error trying to send your message. Please try again later.'
<IgorPec> let me check
<ikmaak> that is even better :)
<IgorPec> form works
<IgorPec> if all fields are placed in
<IgorPec> bank wire should work also on subscriptions https://forum.armbian.com/subscriptions/
<IgorPec> i think
<IgorPec> :)
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<emOne> The donation thing is a great idea
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<ikmaak> i just donated some, it is just 30eu, but less than the nr of different SBC i installed Armbian on over the years :P Thanks to all contributors and other donators. Join in!
<Werner> Thats awesome \o/
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<emOne> Is there some sort of description what the subscription will cover?
<Werner> Electricity, hosting, forum license, hardware...
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<ikmaak> i am happy i finally pulled the trigger on donating.
<Werner> You can unlock the donator achievement in the forums via subscription :P
<IgorPec> not much can be covered with that. we still need to nag companies and add from own pocket that system runs
<IgorPec> next year we would need a new build server, that's solo around 7000 eur :)
<IgorPec> we could get some old one, but that we have now
<emOne> Can donators also get access to build servers? :)
<emOne> Could be an idea
<ikmaak> i did not hope to personally fund the project :P but i got the shortcut made, who knows. :)
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<Werner> There is a beta apt repository for nightly builds which is public
<ikmaak> i am also willing to make a test farm, and doc making one if not doc-ed already
<IgorPec> well, build servers are here for armbian
<IgorPec> i defenetly don't need such power personally
<emOne> I mean say I wanted to build an armbian build for an "unsupported" device
<IgorPec> yeah, probably that is easily doable
<IgorPec> it can be run via gihub runners + exporting artefact or by custom app
<IgorPec> someone would need to make that interface - giving out VMs is a bit more probleamtic
<emOne> I am a small business now
<emOne> High five
<ikmaak> congrats
<emOne> Well let's get these donations going
<emOne> So hopefully we will get nice armbian images :)
<ikmaak> limited offer only: personal congrats and thanks by ikmaak with any donation in the next 24 hours! get yours now!
<emOne> How about people like Balbes or others who contribute?
<Werner> Also offering a free hug with any donation (disclaimer: not during pandemics) :P
<emOne> Can they also benefit from this system?
<emOne> Because I realise there is some bias towards certain boards
<emOne> I know that he dislikes tv boxes for example
<ikmaak> well, we could add a even higher "demands" level subscription :)
<IgorPec> emOne: my goal is to hire help. We have more and more of things that everyone looks away
<emOne> Nice
<emOne> Well I think a big banner on the site should be done
<IgorPec> and it backfires. i waste more and more time for complete BS
<emOne> Like Wikipedia does
<IgorPec> haha
<emOne> I am serious
<IgorPec> "pleas help us, or we will die from hunger" :)?
<Werner> This probably makes people run away
<ikmaak> i was not serious. no "demand" level, at any price :)
<IgorPec> or like "we will damage your computers if you don't pay" :) like todays rantsomware
<emOne> Maybe have a donation goal
<IgorPec> a donation goal is good way IMO
<emOne> IgorPec like Balbes is doing?
<IgorPec> but we only need one server every now and then
<IgorPec> emOne: yeah :(
<emOne> I think the donation should be visible on the front page
<emOne> Don't make it annoying
<emOne> Just visible
<IgorPec> what we truly need is to hire a person or two
<Werner> What you mean by "donation" in particular?
<Werner> If you get a subscription in forums everyone can see
<IgorPec> current situation is wreck / not very well placed / as is
<ikmaak> "this month 370eu was donated, covering x% of costs"
<IgorPec> yeah, this needs a system
<IgorPec> and a person that has time dealing with this
<IgorPec> forum has a module
<IgorPec> i will show it ... have kids situation
<emOne> It doesn't even need to be an amount
<emOne> It can be just a percentage
<ikmaak> btw, i would love to see a pinetab/pinephone release, and have devices to test with. from there on i could work with ansible for the rest of the install. i would like that more than just mobian for these devices, if only for consistency.
<ikmaak> i do not care about the modem functions anyway :)
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<Werner> Woohoo. Invision fixed the access. Now its good.
<ikmaak> i agree, a percentage would be ok too
<ikmaak> but then i would add cutoff points.
<IgorPec> this is not a real project, just playing with
<IgorPec> but below you should see how and how much donated
<wooster> igorpec: i enabled BUILD_DESKTOP and BOOT_LOGO, added path to my png in general.sh, built new image, still not seeing any splash screen at boot. /boot/armbianEnv.txt contains bootlogo=true
<rneese> you talking aboout the board logo
<IgorPec> wooster: sorry, thet was several months ago when i wasted few days on this
<rneese> or the armbian bootup splash screen
<ikmaak> like, "40% donated to cover basic costs. x% more added will make it possible to hire a dev" basic costs includes reservation for new hw
<IgorPec> don't recall without looking into the code
<rneese> wooster, are you talking about the uboot boot up logo ot the armbian bootup screen when you boot a desktop
<IgorPec> rneese: he wants to change it. its kernel logo
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<IgorPec> ikmaak: yeah, that is clear
<ikmaak> that is a beefy cpu
<Werner> It is basically the only cpu that makes sense in comparison to the current hardware. also it needs to last for years
<rneese> igore i found a fix btw if you look at dev channel
<rneese> I am going to look at the helper code and try to add this
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<IgorPec> ikmaak: you have comparisson between current and new system
<IgorPec> in term of cpu power. here also we have pci4 and at laest doubled ssd IO, faster memory
<Heisath> I like the crowdfunding page.
<ikmaak> i did not disagree, i just saw the cpu
<ikmaak> no opinion on it, i do not know the load
<emOne> I posted a link to a forum where they use donations. They have a little donation goal on the homepage
<emOne> It isn't annoying
<emOne> The link is to an image
<IgorPec> forum also have that.
<emOne> I don't see it on armbian forum
<IgorPec> no, we don't use it
<IgorPec> just saying its possible
<wooster> i havent seen any graphical boot screen or logo
<IgorPec> you see it with stock armbian?
<wooster> i didn't have desktop build enabled until this last build, no
<IgorPec> then get a desktop build, too see our logo and use information i gave you, where to start
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<ikmaak> did the crowdfunding page just disappear? i get 'Error code: CROWDFUNDING-VIEW/2'
<IgorPec> yes
<IgorPec> i disable it
<ikmaak> ah
<wooster> i made a desktop build, i just changed LOGO= to my png instead of splash/logo.png
<IgorPec> recompile kernel?
<wooster> not sure, should i set CLEAN_LEVEL="make"?
<IgorPec> remove it
<IgorPec> please read docs
<IgorPec> if you want to use my time to safe hours, that's professional service, not donation
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<ikmaak> reasonable and interesting, but out of my current price range :)
<IgorPec> what, cpu?
<ikmaak> no, you :P
<IgorPec> ah, i help for free but i hate laziness of people that ask for help
<ikmaak> i do hope professional service is hired, btw
<IgorPec> its like ... giving a finger, grabbing a hand saying
<ikmaak> i know you help. even when i came in asking a hand :) (some years ago, i was in a hurry)
<Werner> I know that feeling. When I agreed to do some minor stuff in the forums I was suddenly in charge :P
<stipa> When i search for help and someone doesn't answer thats because he doesn't know.
<stipa> lol
<ikmaak> Werner: thanks for voluenteering! i got that job for some other projects...
<Werner> Its okay. Honestly I expected worse when starting to work with it but it is fairly solid.
<ikmaak> good to hear.
<IgorPec> crowdfunding is something that needs to be drived
<IgorPec> i was just putting system into the functio and playing around, but more then that i can't do. and certainly not alone
<stipa> do coders get any money?
<ikmaak> it is difficult to voluenteer for that, as it is not clear how much work/time it would take, and what competencies are required.
<Werner> I'll take a look into somewhen. But not today. Got a important mission to accomplish: make a cake :)
<IgorPec> stipa: yes they do
<stipa> IgorPec: who they need to contact?
<IgorPec> make a good cake Werner :)
<IgorPec> me
<stipa> ok
<IgorPec> but they get donations. this is not paid job
<stipa> ok
<IgorPec> if we have no donations and if there is nothing left after electricity is paid, there is nothing to split
<IgorPec> but usually something is :)
<IgorPec> ikmaak: i also don't know what to tell you
<IgorPec> have exactly zero experiences in that field
<stipa> IgorPec: i see, i come across some good coders from time to time, it's nice to know this.
<ikmaak> i know, that is the issue. i would love to help out, but would hate to find i am unable to do it properly
<emOne> Please tell Balbes to remove his malware
<emOne> At least just for donators lol
<IgorPec> emOne: donators have no privileges
<IgorPec> and balbes fork is not under the armbian official roof
<emOne> I mean his images are officially hosted by armbian
<IgorPec> its is users that will talk with him and help him.
<IgorPec> users.armbian.com
<IgorPec> you can also get it if you need
<IgorPec> balbes is adult. i will not tell him waht to do.
<emOne> I know I just don't like to download an image that has a "security mechanism" that will damage hardware by design because it is "unsupported"
<emOne> I mean... It is a feature, not a bug that he has made
<IgorPec> me neither, but why this is my problem?
<emOne> Because you're providing him with the platform
<emOne> You could remove him
<emOne> And ban him
<IgorPec> he is in distress, perhaps helping him?
<emOne> I asked him if something is wrong
<emOne> And he said I am making assumptions
<IgorPec> helping him is the way to settle things
<IgorPec> perhaps
<IgorPec> he is under distress because too many people wants something from him. 24/7
<emOne> Making malware that will deliberately break things takes work
<emOne> He could have simply dropped support
<ikmaak> he has, it is about trying to make it install anyway, and then asking him for help
<IgorPec> nothing is simple if people is sucking energy roung the clock
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<jock> hello!
<IgorPec> hej jock
<ikmaak> if i understand correctly, i mean
<jock> hi Igor
<IgorPec> TBH i don't pay much attention to tv boxes areas to understand the energy that is in there
<IgorPec> whenever someone places question outside i move it inside and usually don't comment
<Werner> That is basically what balbes asked for what we could do in terms of moderation to help him
<ikmaak> i think this is also the market. the ppl getting the pphone have totally different expectations of stability and maturity than the ones on the ptab!?!
<emOne> I had this issue where my sd card kept getting corrupted on s905x3 TV box in his later images... And now I don't know if that is part of his security mechanism that will cause "serious problems". Or if it is a bug.. The Sd corruption kept getting worse with each image too
<IgorPec> pinetab and pinephone is pine64 in some other case
<IgorPec> support is fully mainlined for years and all work there is changing icone
<wooster> igorpec: i assure you i am reading the docs, to me when I read them the way to recompile the kernel is CLEAN_LEVEL="make" to clean the kernel sources
<ikmaak> indeed, but ppl ask a lot more as it is a "phone" so should be fully polished...
<emOne> Is anyone here from the UK by any chance?
<IgorPec> its fully polished on lower level
<IgorPec> upper - ubuntu for phones is not amusing me
<IgorPec> or its arch variant
<ikmaak> it is not really something that the community has embraced.
<ikmaak> there are now i think 17 different OSs for it
<IgorPec> and all are crap
<ikmaak> i agree
<IgorPec> and this will not change
<IgorPec> sadly
<IgorPec> wooster: CLEAN_LEVEL="debs"
<wooster> ok thx
<ikmaak> likely, but it got a lot further than openmoko :)
<IgorPec> still far far away from mainstream
<IgorPec> and very old hardware
<ikmaak> yes, but i did not care about the modem, so it is not that bad for me
<IgorPec> it depends
<ikmaak> for now it does what i need it to
<ikmaak> it will just be a decision as soon as my n900 gives up
<IgorPec> can you use NFC powered banking on it? :)
<IgorPec> I can
<ikmaak> for now i do not consider the pphone safe to leave the house with
<ikmaak> i do not have nfc banking
<ikmaak> but you added nfc and support to it?
<IgorPec> who needs phone for calling ?
<IgorPec> no, phone has it and my bank luckily too
<ikmaak> i do still make some calls a month
<ikmaak> n900 has nfc?
<IgorPec> ofc, but the rest is more important
<IgorPec> no idea
<ikmaak> ow, i misunderstood
<ikmaak> to me it is just a mobile terminal...
<IgorPec> this is the feature i need for a phone. for terminal i use 13" laptop
<IgorPec> which is always with me
<ikmaak> i do a lot of emergency response, so then you need to be close to terminal in short time
<emOne> N900 is an amazing phone
<IgorPec> yeah, n900 is proper pda class
<IgorPec> i used to have pocket loox back in the days
<IgorPec> and psion mx
<ikmaak> and i can take a n900 or a laptop, so the n900 still is the best solution for me
<emOne> It is a shame that Nokia never made that OS they were planning
<ikmaak> i started off with mobile linux on the Compaq iPaq
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<IgorPec> agree. i don't do that fast response
<IgorPec> so laptop is just fine
<ikmaak> there is still maemo-leste, they support a continuation of the os.
<emOne> Nokia was planning jolla or sailfish
<emOne> But. They lost momentum
<emOne> It is as if they were paid to fail
<ikmaak> it was so much fun when i got the n900 first. i did do a lot of nature walks in that time, but could not for a long part of the week, and then i could :)
<ikmaak> well, "doing an elop" is a business expression now :)
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<emOne> It is? Heh
<emOne> He did the same to macromeida if I remember correctly
<ikmaak> he has a track record, yes :P
<emOne> :(
<emOne> The right man for the right job
<ikmaak> i once used it at a meeting, "so are we getting elopped", and a lot of the ppl in the room knew immediately what i meant, including our elop :P
<ikmaak> that set the tone for our cooperation immediately :)
<emOne> where are you from ikmaak?
<ikmaak> NL
<emOne> People know that term there? That is amazing
<ikmaak> NL also had nokia's
<emOne> We actually had this topic in business school
<ikmaak> and we liked the company here
<emOne> But they failed to mention about elop doing the elop
<ikmaak> huh?
<ikmaak> its like describing bread without saying you can eat it...
<emOne> Exactly
<emOne> Also Microsoft was involved at a later stage
<emOne> So that was also talked about
<ikmaak> elop was a MS manager that got moved into Nokia to "prepare it for the future".
<emOne> Lolol
<emOne> Trololllolol
<emOne> We talked more about the "product focus" aspect
<emOne> Rather than the "Eloping"
<ikmaak> but anyway, that is how i stopped upgrading my phone
<ikmaak> as there were no upgrades
<emOne> I didn't upgrade my e72 forever
<emOne> I liked my e71
<emOne> I called in to Nokia to get a bug fixed with the e72
<emOne> It a had a keyrollover bug with certain keys
<emOne> And somehow no one else noticed or complained about it
<buZz> e72 = e71i ?
<emOne> The person who answered the phone was even surprised
<buZz> i had a e71 and moved to e71i , in the time
<emOne> I had e71 and moved to e72
<emOne> E71i looks like e71
<emOne> E71 E71i and e72 were all very similar
<buZz> i had a bunch of other e models aswell around that time
<buZz> but moved to a iPaq quite soon after
<emOne> It is funny how symbian had more features than iPhone at the time
<buZz> my job at the time required me to be close to internet+ssh 24/7
<emOne> It was a great phone
<buZz> yeah and symbian is kinda cool
<emOne> It had irc clients, torrent clients, social media clients, terminal emulators
<buZz> maemo is cooler though
<buZz> :P
<emOne> I always wanted an n900
<emOne> Full features Linux OS
<emOne> Featured
<buZz> i got 3x n900, a n810, a n800, a 770
<emOne> Ooh nice
<emOne> Touch screen symbian was horrible
<buZz> i liked UIQ3 better
<buZz> or what was it called, that sony symbian fork
<emOne> Can you remember that you could change themes on symbian. It included icon packs and backgrounds and sounds I think
<buZz> heh totally
<emOne> Ios14 has that feature
<emOne> It is new
<buZz> sherley bassey - history repeating
<emOne> Symbian was great. It had all the ios features before the iPhone
<buZz> windows 1.0 had that in 1836
<emOne> Sega mega drive emulator worked at full speed even heh
<emOne> It always had difficulties opening websites because of the low amount of ram
<emOne> But otherwise it was a great os
<emOne> Did Windows 1 really have themes??
<emOne> In 1836 lolll
<wooster> i want to ResEdit my iphone
<emOne> I say.. Do it
<emOne> Don't let dreams be dreams
<ArmbianTwitter> @botter_nidnul (b🦦-nidnul): Yes, this is why I am warning Urbiters away from Raspberry Pis. An event log based OS running on a microsd card is a castle built on sand. You can run Urbit on a device better suited to it for not much more money. https://t.co/O0JgecBOMw (12s ago)
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<buZz> emOne: i think so :P
<buZz> win 3.0 at least did
<emOne> I know win98 or ME did have themes
<emOne> I don't think win95 did
<buZz> it did!
<buZz> i only ran windows from 96 till ~2000
<buZz> ME made me realize i dont want a MyFirstComputer experience each time i interact with it
<emOne> Oh wow that is awesome
<buZz> so i moved to linux 24/7 on all systems
<emOne> Hehehe
<emOne> I think ME wasn't as bad as people made it out to be
<buZz> nah it was ok once you tweaked some shit
<emOne> It was a win2000 skin for win98
<buZz> i ran ME mostly with a X server running
<buZz> so i could alt-tab between windows and linux programs
<emOne> I didn't know that was possible
<buZz> until i realized all i needed was already on linux
<emOne> Yo guys..
<emOne> Soo is Balbes trolling right?
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<emOne> He didn't really build software that will break stuff.. Right?
<emOne> It must be a troll
<IgorPec> just don't use that images. nobody give him anything for this work
<emOne> I am tempted to try it heh
<emOne> But you're right
<emOne> I think people should pay for his work
<emOne> As in, the people using it
<IgorPec> yes, until then ...
<IgorPec> fork it and maintain
<ikmaak> anyway he was very clear, s905x3 is not supported. i think that should be enough for ppl
<emOne> Maybe I should just ask him if we should set up a donation round for him to support our devices
<ikmaak> as long as you do not ask him to support the s905x3, that would be ok :)
<ikmaak> in my opinion
<IgorPec> real costs is 10.000 USD per device per year
<IgorPec> not sure if that can be covered
<ikmaak> excluding "entitled user support/evasion" cost
<IgorPec> if people pay, he has right to be dump
<IgorPec> dumb
<IgorPec> lazy
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<IgorPec> a customer
<IgorPec> he = that person, not balbes :)
<ikmaak> i do hope i get the sopine clusterboard fix in somehow, but not if that is my entitlement for the donation :P
<IgorPec> i am just saying how much time is wasted that things works
<ikmaak> yes
<IgorPec> beeing right now on irc i will probably get some garbage from my wife if nothing worse
<emOne> Ahh OK that makes sense
<ikmaak> i could be motivated for the IgorWifeFlower fund...
<IgorPec> its always some sort of trade and if people doesn0t respect the time
<IgorPec> not just mine
<IgorPec> i think there are others, especially balbes in crisis of some sort
<IgorPec> because paying too much attention elsewhere and getting nothing in return. Money is the last thing here
<emOne> It sucks that he doesn't come onto irc
<IgorPec> he speaks english very bad
<ikmaak> i do not know balbes, and luckily i do not have a s905x3 to annoy him with, but if he clearlyt states that he does not want to do something, and it is not respected, that is rude
<IgorPec> we had it last time on our regular meeting but we have translator
<IgorPec> ... hello
<ArmbianHelper> . hello [en~>eng]
<IgorPec> ... spasiva
<ArmbianHelper> . saving [hr~>eng]
<ikmaak> balbes speaks hr?
<IgorPec> no, russian
<emOne> He speaks Russian I would inaggjne
<IgorPec> it was my mistake
<ikmaak> ah
<ikmaak> i am not able to do that...
<IgorPec> ... хвала
<ArmbianHelper> . thanks [sr~>eng]
<emOne> ikmaak: it isn't so much that he is not supporting a cpu. But he has included malware that will purposefully damage an unsupported device
<IgorPec> three dots in frontz
<IgorPec> emOne: so someone will step up and maintain. code is open
<IgorPec> anyone can look and see
<IgorPec> if you will want to have this, some work will need to be invested, not abusing him
<ikmaak> emOne: as i read it he said he might do it, and insinuated that he does not have to, to get the same result
<emOne> Let me check
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<ikmaak> anyway, his req is reasonable. s905x3 is not supported, leave me alone about it.
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<[TheBug]> wat
<emOne> "In all new versions of images and the kernel, I will add various security mechanisms that will create serious problems, including hardware problems and hardware failure."
<IgorPec> yeah :) that's a bit funny
<emOne> Fair enough
<IgorPec> so don't use it
<emOne> Hehe heh but I am tempted
<IgorPec> then use it :)
<emOne> Yoon curious loln
<IgorPec> [thebug] hey
<emOne> Too curious
<ikmaak> i agree that he stated that badly, but the message is clear. do not use.
<IgorPec> its probably not the best approach, but its his time
<ikmaak> if you are really so curious, send him the money of a good s905x3 device, and ask, while promising not to tell.
<IgorPec> its too late for money
<emOne> I found a video of Balbes right now :)
<ikmaak> i just meant that for the donation he might answer the q
<ikmaak> i hope he stops with the wording, but i fully suppor him in not wanting to work on the s905x3. even if it is not rational, which i do not know.
<ikmaak> indeed, it is his time
<emOne> I just hope that it isn't an elop situation
<ikmaak> it cannot be, situation is completely different
<emOne> Where certain partners are providing incentives so armbian only works on certain devices
<IgorPec> that is a bit foolish
<IgorPec> but you can differentiate support
<IgorPec> like we do - those boards are supported, others are not
<emOne> That is fair enough
<IgorPec> "but they are almost the same" ... who cares
<IgorPec> there is a code, use it
<IgorPec> code is open, nothing is hidden
<ikmaak> as long as devices are well documented and do not generate a lot of support req, i think armbian is very easy in supporting devices, but you as a producer of boards can make up for the added difficulty in your board, by supporting dev
<ikmaak> and was just said, "real costs is 10.000 USD per device per year"
<emOne> If I was making money of it I would gladly pay 10000usd per year
<IgorPec> wasting time with users
<emOne> What do you mean?
<IgorPec> is half even hw works well
<ikmaak> i consider that a good service to offer as well, considering that everyone will stop talking to the produces, but instead go here
<IgorPec> people have questions 24/7
<ikmaak> i know i do have q 24/7 :)
<emOne> People should be helping each other in a community forum
<IgorPec> good service to throw away 2000 EUR per day and earn 100
<emOne> And 1 guy shouldn't be helping the rest
<emOne> In a community forum everyone helps each other
<emOne> In my opinion
<ikmaak> i try to offer something back for all support i give, be it docs or whatever
<IgorPec> the reality is that there are just a few that know how
<ikmaak> i try to offer something back for all support i ask, be it docs or whatever
<IgorPec> just do it :)
<IgorPec> whenever you feel
<ikmaak> i am writing a doc about the sopines, if you want it i adapt to armbian
<ikmaak> where would you like it?
<IgorPec> no idea
<emOne> I for example offered to help with making dtb files. I asked in the forum on some specifics of how to make dtb files... But the people that know exactly how to make them didn't want to tell me the specifics
<IgorPec> talk to werner when he is around. he is more in this
<emOne> I don't know why people are not saying it
<ikmaak> ok, i will continue writing for now, we can look into it later, also which adaptations are needed
<IgorPec> emOne: probably a good start would be to add dtb editor
<IgorPec> would decompile, provide editor and pack back
<IgorPec> from armnbian-config ...
<emOne> I even wanted to document the process of making a dtb and share it with everyone so that people could share their dtb files for their boxes
<ikmaak> emOne, i got a way to do it, that often works. make an article on the forum on how to do it, and explain till how far you understand, and update if that gives you access to more info
<IgorPec> well for dtbs related to tvboxes
<IgorPec> we don't maintain docs
<emOne> IgorPec: I kind of have figured out how to make the dtb files. But I think i did it the hard way
<ikmaak> emOne: did you doc that?
<ikmaak> :)
<emOne> I didn't because it isn't the right way and is very painstaking
<emOne> But even the way I use the people didn't want to talk about
<emOne> My way was to compare multiple different dtbs
<emOne> And find the differences in each files
<ikmaak> it would make your thought process clear, and make ppl want to correct you :)
<emOne> To find the correct settings for my particular device
<emOne> I asked about phandles
<emOne> ikmaak true
<ikmaak> sounds like a method id like to read about. also the way of making the dtb's in general, or overlays (as i would like to know)
<emOne> I have no idea about overlays
<emOne> I just know about decompiled dtb files
<ikmaak> i already know what my overlay would need, but i do know what it would solve
<ikmaak> i already know what my overlay would need, but i do know what the procedure is
<emOne> ikmaak when you decompile a dtb file that includes an overlay does it decompile the overlay into a seperate file?
<emOne> I mean if it is just a matter of selling stuff... Why even have a community forum if no one is willing to share their knowledge?
<ikmaak> i do not know yet. the trick i used was in the pine forum, but that breaks at updates. https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=10432
<ikmaak> ppl that can do are overworked, so do not have a lot of time to handhold
<ikmaak> so the info does not get spread around. that is why i say to do it this way, then there is an incentive to tell, as otherwise the incomplete/wrong info will become canon. after a while it is even better for the overworked devs.
<emOne> What breaks at Updates?
<emOne> The updated dtb files?
<ikmaak> the dtb gets reverted
<ikmaak> yes
<ikmaak> there are a nr of options, but i think the overlay is cleanest and most automatable
<emOne> Perhaps. I haven't even looked at overlays yet
<emOne> The way I edit dtb files is as follows
<emOne> You see that the dtb files have phandles
<ikmaak> sorry to do this right now, but gotta go :(
<emOne> These phandles "connect" all the variables together
<emOne> Okok
<emOne> Np
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<Werner> Somebody mentioned me?
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<[TheBug]> who didn't, I mean you are the most popular person here
<[TheBug]> ;)
<Werner> Then I have to get a pseudonym and take cover :)
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<[TheBug]> lol
<IgorPec> .hide
<stipa> where's that annoying guy Werner?
<ForSureNotWerner> Didn't see him since he changed his name and magically disappeared...
<stipa> he sux bad, man
<IgorPec> i heard he was banned
<stipa> that's great news
<IgorPec> yes, finally some peace
<stipa> yeah, i can feel it
<ForSureNotWerner> Github seem to have some hickups lately when accessing megis sources
<IgorPec> github is overall in troubles
<IgorPec> not just there
<IgorPec> i am rebuilding nightly images whole day today and its not finished
<ForSureNotWerner> The runner for the eoan support was going crazy
<IgorPec> timeout after timeout
<IgorPec> make me think not to attach ourselfs too much to github
<ForSureNotWerner> Yep saw those improvements. Bummer that this is needed trying to fix githubs hickups
<IgorPec> yeah, its Microsoft now :)
<ForSureNotWerner> I know
<ForSureNotWerner> Alternative? Gitlab?
<IgorPec> it will look nice, but it won't work that nice
<IgorPec> there are more but gitlab is probably the thing yes
<IgorPec> sad part of migration is community that is around
<IgorPec> migrating code is one click
<ForSureNotWerner> And this does not solve all issues cause of dependencies...
<IgorPec> yes
<ForSureNotWerner> 3rd party WiFi, megi and rk sources ....
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<IgorPec> perhaps gitcache?
<IgorPec> git proxy
<ForSureNotWerner> Hm maybe, yeah
<IgorPec> how was cake?:)
<ForSureNotWerner> Its still in the oven
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<ForSureNotWerner> Fruit cake with pears we brought from last vacation
<ForSureNotWerner> Not much for us though. I'll take it to the office tomorrow.
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<emOne> IgorPec shouldn't odroid c4 images work relatively well on a s905x3 based TV box?
<emOne> I mean armbian does officially support the odroid c4
<rneese> yes
<rneese> but its what they boards do depends
<rneese> its how it connects to a emmc or nand
<rneese> and the bootloader fuunctions
<rneese> and the tv boot loader might not let you boot froom sd
<rneese> so you would have to be able to connect a ttl consol and test
<IgorPec> even c4 doesn't work well
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<emOne> What about the c4 doesn't yet work?
* emOne is looking forward to the bananapi m4
<rneese> that will take tiime to support
<rneese> a dtb for the current kernel and loads of testing
<rneese> and then once a base build works then desktop
<rneese> have fun
<rneese> i did not know realtek was making arm cpu now
<rneese> wow only quad core
<rneese> ok
<rneese> how much they going to run
<rneese> this is one you might look at
<rneese> in the us you can get it at andahammer.com
<emOne> Even the iPhone didn't work well up until the release date
<emOne> When it was time to do the public iPhone reveal the OS would crash all the time
<emOne> The engineers found a certain sequence of features Jobs could show without crashing the os. I am sure all of you know this story
<rneese> I just think sticking to well supported soc boards saves stress
<rneese> yes but the rt soc is one I have never seen/heard of
<rneese> so it will awhile until its supported unless someoonee geta a board and does the porting work
<rneese> so just beware
<emOne> Me neither. The more the merrier
<rneese> but what is cost I dont see a expected cost
<rneese> wow 53 bucks
<rneese> and its on amazon
<rneese> just know 8gig emmc is going to be very tight
<rneese> 53+18s&h
<rneese> wow
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<emOne> Oops
<emOne> I meant banana pi m5
<emOne> The amlogic kne
<emOne> One
<rneese> still only quad core but ok
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<rneese> and still 50+bucks
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<rneese> I would go with the nanopi m4 and get the $4 nvme ssd addon board
<rneese> but thats me
<rneese> I have the t4 wich would be basicly the same thing
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<rneese> ok I need some tester with boards that have 2g and 4 gig ram
<rneese> that are currently supported
<rneese> temm me what boards and I will build a apha img of 1 of our new desktops
<rneese> for testing
<rneese> i have a pct4 and building a n2 img
<rneese> but need other boards and people to review
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<nekomancer[m]> where set variables that used in boot.ini?
<nekomancer[m]> uboot itself?
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<rneese> in /boot in the env file
<rneese> as I recall
<rneese> or boot with console and set them
<rneese> come on guys I need a few tester with boards that are 2 and 4 gig that are known supported boards
<rneese> I am only building the basic desktop
<rneese> but we need testers
<rneese> no
<rneese> wrong window on the no
<ikmaak> i have a bunch of sopines and a nanopi m4
<ikmaak> rneese: it is late, but if you provide me with instructions, i will run the tests tomorrow morning
<rneese> ok I have a m4 img
<rneese> so thats good and I will add sopines '''
<ikmaak> i am unsure if i got other devices with 2-4gig
<ikmaak> ah, the odroid xu4/hc1
<rneese> ok I will add them
<ikmaak> i got both, and are both 2g