Werner changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | Forums Feed: #armbian-rss | Development Talk: #armbian-devel | Type 'help' for help | Logs: -> irc.armbian.com
<archetech> see if stock pkgs will do weston
<archetech> oops
* lanefu wonders if the stock pkgs will do weston
<lanefu> i did weston briefly on my opi4...but cant remember if it was focal or bullseye when i tried
<lanefu> so obviously thats not helpful... but im just trying to relate
<[TheBug]> [AR-230]
<ArmbianHelper> AR-230 [Story] "Decide what to do with TVboxes" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2020-05-04. Status: In Progress
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<archetech_n2> sweet
<lanefu> westonized?
<archetech_n2> yup
<lanefu> very cool
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<lanefu> panfrost?
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<archetech_n2> no way
<archetech_n2> not on stock
<lanefu> pizzafrost?
<archetech_n2> llvmpipe on gl is all ya get
<lanefu> good 'nuff
<lanefu> played quake3 fine
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<archetech_n2> need mees a browser
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<rneese> panfrost is going to be awhile off
<lanefu> house of painfrost
<rneese> stop pushing we have biugs and thngs to fix first
<rneese> piiefrost
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<lanefu> rneese: ha don't worry i'm not pushing.. i'm happy w/o acceleration already
<rneese> lanefu, you need to get the ppbp mods into the system so I can get them into the desktop build
<rneese> goto pm
<nekomancer[m]> <Tonymac32 "lol people dropping into the lin"> cyberpunk they deserved
<lanefu> lol
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<sdoran> I just published an Ansible collection for gathering facts on Armbian devices: https://galaxy.ansible.com/samdoran/armbian
<sdoran> Hopefully it'll be useful to some folks. Feedback and PRs welcome.
<sdoran> It basically just parses `/etc/armbian-release` and stores it in `ansible_facts.armbian`.
<sdoran> Not sure if there is other Armbian specific info that would be useful or not.
<ArmbianTwitter> @SamDoran (Sam Doran): Because I know how to have tons of fun on a Friday night. I just published a new @Ansible collection with a facts module for @armbian. Happy automating!https://t.co/cKPFh0Nf4c (thanks to @lanefu for giving me the idea) (26s ago)
<sdoran> Echo chamber. 😀
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<lanefu> lol
<lanefu> it works! http://ix.io/2BNe
<lanefu> i'll have to ping teh guy that added armbian support to ansible k3s
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<nekomancer[m]> why allwinner linux family named SUNxi?
<nekomancer[m]> but SUN was named sparc
<c0rnelius> Sounds good?
<nekomancer[m]> yes, but still "why"?
<lanefu> lol
<nekomancer[m]> Allwinner does not actively participate in or support this community. In fact, it is violating the GPLv2 license in several ways and has so far not shown willingness to resolve this.
<nekomancer[m]> shame!
<nekomancer[m]> but — "The sunxi community is a very active and advanced one."
<[TheBug]> Why is the big yellow bird on Sesame Street called "Big Bird" instead of a Yellow Warbler?
<nekomancer[m]> so complicated
<[TheBug]> you asking to dive down the rabbit hole
<lanefu> you may lose your mind if you find the truth
<nekomancer[m]> nnnnooooooo
<c0rnelius> Why ask this @Armbian. As if anyone here had any real insight or say so in the matter?
<nekomancer[m]> friday night.
<c0rnelius> Fair enough
<[TheBug]> Why ask why when you can ask why not?!
<[TheBug]> lol
<[TheBug]> Friday night...
<[TheBug]> nekomancer[m] is it party night in #Armbian ?
<ArmbianTwitter> @lanefu (Lane Jennison): Thanks for making this @SamDoran going to be super handy for the @armbian farm. https://t.co/p160dQP8my (7s ago)
<nekomancer[m]> little party in hursh #corona world
<[TheBug]> ...Давайте веселиться!
<ArmbianHelper> .Let's have fun! [ru~>eng]
<nekomancer[m]> ..похоже, мы плавно начинаем!
<ArmbianHelper> looks like we're starting smoothly! [ru~>eng]
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<ArmbianTwitter> @armbian (armbian): RT @SamDoran: Because I know how to have tons of fun on a Friday night. I just published a new @Ansible collection with a facts module for… (23s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter> @armbian (armbian): RT @voltagex: This one works! u-boot doesn't see it but Linux does. https://t.co/mro6VHrxqQ (22s ago)
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<IgorPec> good morning
<nekomancer[m]> good morning!
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<Werner> Good morning
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<archetech> GNOME 3.38.1
<archetech> <archetech> Distro: Armbian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye)
<archetech> <archetech> Machine: Type: ARM Device System: Hardkernel ODROID-N2Plus
<ArmbianTwitter> @armbian (armbian): @voltagex Aquantia in this USB based https://t.co/cfdnQpp9O6 goes between 1.2-3Gbits/s, while PCI and Thunderbolt 10Gb Aquantia AQC107<-> Aquantia runs (over the switch, same conditions) at 100%. Perfectly, Linux or Windows. (3s ago)
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<ArmbianTwitter> @voltagex (Adam ♿): @armbian Yeah, am waiting to see what happens with the pricing of the Aquantia gear. (7s ago)
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<ArmbianTwitter> @VeryMetalDev (Henri VeryMetalDev ⌨️🖥️👨‍🔧🖋️✏️😷): @_Bartotten_ En freaking beter ondersteund dan de Orange Pi. Maar me & those minipc's aren't through by a long shot, no sir. Be sure to check Armbian for workable images: https://t.co/PEKsPyaXGY (5s ago)
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<Werner> bad boy
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<rneese> someone broke the twitter bot
<Werner> having trouble with the vm running the irc stuff. network broke after reboot :(
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<ArmbianTwitter> @armbian (armbian): @voltagex One more test with QNAP 5Gbe ... with latest Ubuntu 20.10 on x86 it runs stable at 3.5Gbps in both direction. (51.6m ago)
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<emOne> What's good everybody?
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<Tonymac32> nothing. :)
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<jock> hi all!
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<IgorPec> hej jock
<jock> hi Igor
<IgorPec> what do you think about recent TV boxes changes / problems ? It happened very fast ...
<IgorPec> i personally don't read that stuff much
<jock> Uhm, I'm trying to get acquainted with
<IgorPec> we had an idea to make a slow change, but its hard to hold people back
<jock> yeah it happened fast, last week was a bit intense for me and had little time and all of a sudden I found the clubs up and running
<IgorPec> we were preparing this for a while, just proper communication was missing compoment i think
<IgorPec> how to switch this properly and without pain
<IgorPec> if
<[TheBug]> yeah need to really have a convo about it
<jock> yes, I also thought that a bit more communication would have been better for the users
<IgorPec> yeah
<IgorPec> but now its what it is
<[TheBug]> Well it seemed to come more from Balbes's frustration with incomplete content or content he thought was old and confusing
<IgorPec> correct
<[TheBug]> he actually wanted to remove a lot of it not understanding the way SEO works
<IgorPec> he wanted to get rid of his problems somehow
<[TheBug]> unfortunately a lot of that stuff is indexed in google
<[TheBug]> and that would cause a huge mess
<IgorPec> yes. i had to peruide him that this is not a good idea
<IgorPec> so he eventually listen
<[TheBug]> well had you not I was gonna jump in there and say no
<IgorPec> and he didn't delete anyhting AFAIK
<[TheBug]> cause yeah that would cause a nightmare for the SEO of the site
<IgorPec> yep
<IgorPec> + anger of users
<[TheBug]> indeed
<IgorPec> and frustration and etc. i received numerours of emails on this topic
<IgorPec> asking what he is up to and similar ...
<[TheBug]> well hopefully I have some time to review the changes here and maybe can start to think through a better way forward
<jock> I don't understand why some interesting and trafficked threads were left behind, like the one on the s905x3 things
<[TheBug]> jock: I know I asked you before but what is your interest level / time availability and what boards do you usually support
<IgorPec> jock: you mean left in forums and not moved to club?
<[TheBug]> I also am thinking maybe we can try and give different boards to different people to maintain so that balbes isn't feeling he has to do it all him self
<jock> IgorPec: yes exactly, rk3328 was moved, but the s905x3 wasn't
<IgorPec> jock: i think club structure is not yet determined - so no one knows where to move it.
<[TheBug]> jock: the answer is we need to actually come together an work on coming up with a new standard for how we want it
<IgorPec> posts anyway have the same URL, just index is changing
<[TheBug]> if we can get enough input from people it can be however we want it
<IgorPec> from one forum to another "club" forum
<[TheBug]> but we need to actually determine what that is
<IgorPec> also throwing away anything that was achieved - no matter how good or bad tvbox areas is - is not good
<[TheBug]> half of us are autistic in nature anyways so its no supprise a lot will be OCD and be annoyed by ANY changes..
<jock> TheBug: can't really define the interest level, I'm happy to work on them as a hobby because I like reverse engineer them and not let them become trash but reuse for some decent purposes
<IgorPec> i think balbes took it to personally
<[TheBug]> I thgink so too
<[TheBug]> I think we allowed too much pressure on him
<IgorPec> yeah. but how to protect people from it???
<[TheBug]> he is reacting like someone who feels forced into a corner
<IgorPec> this question hunt me all the time
<IgorPec> he is indeed cornered
<jock> TheBug: time is always scarse, I have a full-time job, but also I think this should be nothing more than a "best-effort" maintenance for things like tv-boxes
<IgorPec> some by choice, some by circumstances
<IgorPec> best-effort is abused daily
<[TheBug]> jock: yeah I have full time job as well, and delt with death in family from covid and all that, I know how it feels to want to get things done but not have time for it -- this is all the reason I have failed to get this resolved before it came a problem -- this I do feel is partially my fault.
<IgorPec> people are pushing
<IgorPec> now you take it personally :) don't
<[TheBug]> I was tasked to handle this and I let it slip and its just got worse.. so time to put on my big boy pants and find some solutions
<IgorPec> you took it very well indeed, but we can't predict when someone will get crazy
<IgorPec> i know balbes is under too much pressure and finding the way is part of this solution
<[TheBug]> well and this isn't something against balbes at all but the language barrier does in some ways make it even a bit more difficult to actually determine exactly his feelings.. I feel it comes out pretty vanilla in english
<jock> TheBug: Oh, I'm sorry for your loss. I think that dealing with forums and community things is a best-effort job, you do whenever you can. No-one is paying us for that, so there must be no rush at all. It should be a pleasure to do such service for the community, not a real job. If you can't because you have no time or because you have no energy, the users will just have to wait... or organize themselves to deal with themselves
<[TheBug]> cause he is a nice guy but seems he is a lot more frustrated than he says
<IgorPec> yes, that's also critical. emOne said he will help in native comm when/if needed
<[TheBug]> jock: what if you were making some money from it, would it change your outlook / availability for participation at all? It will probably come down to us needing a few people and to find some way to repay for some of their time.
<[TheBug]> Thats one of the questions I asked for balbes as well
<[TheBug]> if money is an issue we can always raise some donations or something to try and compensate contributors in some way
<[TheBug]> or
<[TheBug]> send them a new board when it comes
<[TheBug]> or something like that
<[TheBug]> I know at least it would probably create more motivation
<IgorPec> not sure if that is an issue when person is overloaded
<[TheBug]> no no, my point is get others involved what would give interest
<[TheBug]> not him specifically but, in general
<[TheBug]> what would be something that would be motivational or make it feel like less of a chore
<[TheBug]> sometimes that is all thats needed to make it fun again
<IgorPec> yes, but people that have interest to do something are alread involved
<IgorPec> with money we could probably extend that interest
<[TheBug]> right but use logic here
<[TheBug]> yes
<[TheBug]> thats my point
<[TheBug]> everone has a limit they will do for free / fun
<[TheBug]> when they reach that they just walk away
<IgorPec> if it would be a realistic, balbes should have a hand
<[TheBug]> if there is some external motivation you can better get around that
<eth01> hi, what is balbes? :)
<IgorPec> i also loooking on the project objestives - we would easily have work for several full timers
<[TheBug]> agreed.. so we need to find someone with time and interest in this that may be willing to either take boards or some small compensation for being around on a normal basis to help
<jock> TheBug: well, making money from this is not exactly the motivation, so can't really answer on this. Also I'm in a life-changing moment so time is even less than before, and can't really say if I would like to do this as a payed job
<[TheBug]> jock: more so asking what would be something motivating, what do you think would be motivating to you or anyone to want to help / participate more /etc
<[TheBug]> just trying to brainstorm ideas
<IgorPec> i think we should probably focus to freelancers with this
<[TheBug]> your right with a lot of us being professionals and having other jobs it is hard to lure someone into wanting to spend time on this
<[TheBug]> especially if they have kids
<IgorPec> freelancers usually works for more clients
<jock> TheBug: do you mean ideas to make people partecipate in the tvbox section or for the general project?
<[TheBug]> jock: but I imagine balbes started much like you and the just because of his skill level everything got lumped to him..
<[TheBug]> atm just speaking tv boxes in general
<[TheBug]> not our already supported boards
<[TheBug]> they are functionally as far as armbian is concerend two seperated communities to some extent.. the things that are supported have internal people that are supporting them... tv boxes though were decided to be a community effort -- so without any specific person saying they will take ownership of X board, its difficult to determine how we would get people with some free time to want to
<[TheBug]> participate and support those boards
<[TheBug]> obviously its becoming too much for balbes and he feels like its all been made his responsibility
<[TheBug]> so the alternative would end up being just no support at all
<[TheBug]> hoping we can avoid that being the case as there are some tv boxes worth supporting out there
<jock> TheBug: okay, but I think there's some sort of "mismanagement" from balbes or some kind of communication issue...
<[TheBug]> jock: I think he has assumed this is all his responsibility and doesn't know how to ask for help
<[TheBug]> I have been in that position before, its suffocating
<IgorPec> exactly. i also understand him
<IgorPec> the problem is what we can do about
<IgorPec> ?
<[TheBug]> well we need more people to step up and say they will take on / handle certain boards -- then those people if they get stuck can ask blabes for help when he has the time available -- this would remove people beating up balbes constantly in the forums and leave us with another person who could hopefully answer queries
<[TheBug]> balbes*
<[TheBug]> but like jock said, a lot of people who are currently with any interest level there are doing it as a hobby
<IgorPec> well, we have troubles with SBC
<Tonymac32> :(
<Tonymac32> yeah
<IgorPec> its like salvaging another ship while sinking :)
<[TheBug]> right, why balbes feels overloaded I am sure
<Tonymac32> I was promoted in my "real job", and now work 10-12 hours pretty regularly. Good example of the issue
<IgorPec> absolutely he is.
<[TheBug]> Tonymac32: dounds like then you have enough money to hire an apprentice -- get to it
<[TheBug]> sounds*
<Tonymac32> psht
<[TheBug]> :D
<[TheBug]> lol
<Tonymac32> haha
<IgorPec> that is the key problem that lead to his "no more this and that"
<[TheBug]> okay so
<[TheBug]> my feeling is
<[TheBug]> we need a forum post that reads along the lines of
<[TheBug]> calling all dev who have an interest in supporting the tv box community
<jock> TheBug: ok, if so there's indeed a communication issue... If I understand corretly, the general idea around tv-boxes is that the community does the effort, no one is asked to do anything specific, but if any help is appreciated.
<[TheBug]> and then explaining our current state, that we need more volunteers and see if we can recruit some people for specific boxes...maybe
<IgorPec> jock: yes, but since we can't ... should be just close forums down?
<[TheBug]> jock: but problem right now is not a lot of community people are helping so it instead ends up with balbes supporting all then all kinds of people opening topics expecting him to fix their issues
<[TheBug]> so someone is needed who can also go through those posts and work with the end user
<IgorPec> there is also a problem that they are tied to "armbian"
<Tonymac32> right
<jock> IgorPec: so the real problem is the moderation of the forums?
<[TheBug]> so balbes doesn't feel like he has to answer every single question
<[TheBug]> its combination
<[TheBug]> but mostly we need more dedicated people I guess to help in that section
<[TheBug]> help with answering users and solving issues
<IgorPec> we can help with commication
<[TheBug]> but they are kinda hand and hand
<[TheBug]> like it's easy to answer someone in forum
<[TheBug]> it's hard to actually fix t he issue or address it sometimes
<IgorPec> so this has to be placed and advertised
<IgorPec> not just for tvboxes, but everywhere
<IgorPec> i am also tired telling people to get real
<[TheBug]> yeah I think I am gonna work on a post for the forum Igor to at help get the ball rolling, will spend a few hours today coming up with it and brainstorming some other ideas there -- I will run it all by you before I post anything or proceed there.
<IgorPec> is a good source of information for that pamflet, starting with chewitt
<IgorPec> as short as possible > bigger chance that people will read it
<[TheBug]> right
<[TheBug]> Actually
<[TheBug]> Chewitt hits it right on the nose there pretty much
<[TheBug]> those tv box manufaturers are not responsible for long term support of their boards they just through something 'good enough' together and put it out the door
<[TheBug]> this means several variations of a single box
<[TheBug]> this means that quality of chips varies
<[TheBug]> so memory can be slower or faster or just bad
<[TheBug]> then with groups like Amlogic only being in it for money and not community, getting support out of them sounds like it isn't gonna happen unless you twist someones arm
<[TheBug]> the tv box creators want you running their software as it has their spamware and such installed where they make additional money, you buying the box and moving it to linux was never part of their business plan
<[TheBug]> so yeah its all gonna be someone having a passion for it
<jock> Sorry for the question, what happens if balbes just "disengages" himself a bit from trying to reply every single request? I mean, if a request does not worth an answer, or has already been answered too many times or it is reported on the first page, he can just ignore it...
<[TheBug]> like balbes has had but he is probably hitting the point it becomes more a job than passion
<[TheBug]> jock: for some people that is easy to do, for others not so much
<IgorPec> yes, but people doesn't know that. If they would, a lot of people won't not even start to demand
<IgorPec> i don't care if vendor supports armbian or not
<IgorPec> that is not the problem of us nor users
<[TheBug]> jock: something to consider (and I am talking out my ass somewhat cause I don't know as fact) but a good amount of us are in some way Autistic and have different OCD things, it is possible balbes feels obligated by such
<IgorPec> its always users responsibility to cover their expenmses
<IgorPec> if they want something to work ... wtf that would be our problem? or hw vendor that sells it with android
<IgorPec> jock: balbes told me yesterday he is going to vacations for few weeks
<[TheBug]> IgorPec: yeah but people who buy those are not IT or computer people a lot of time, they are buying because their friend who is in IT or, cmon lets be real, youtube channels like ETA Prime, push these tv boxes
<[TheBug]> then they buy them and want to put linux on them like their friends
<IgorPec> yes, i know they don't know
<IgorPec> if they want to run Linux, "here is something you should know before wasting our time"
<[TheBug]> yeah but think how you would take on that project, you get the box on a Friday night and you say I have the weekend to make this work...
<IgorPec> that kind of pamflet. for people to read and as an universal answer
<[TheBug]> then you go all in for next 12 hours
<[TheBug]> and by end of 12 hours when it doesn't work, you get frustrated and will take any help you can get
<[TheBug]> this leads to forum and then what looks to be a complaint because person is tierd and frustrated
<IgorPec> yes, people that come here are already frustrated. i get that
<IgorPec> i see it
<IgorPec> but we also are
<[TheBug]> ep
<[TheBug]> yep
<IgorPec> double. because of hw, ourselfes and them
<[TheBug]> you are correct though it does have some part to do with expectations set
<IgorPec> of course it does. we know what dimension certain problem has
<IgorPec> user have no clue
<IgorPec> for hime its a simple problem, while in reality we would say fuck off even he puts 10.000 USD on the table
<[TheBug]> IgorPec: let me ask you this then -- have you thought of maybe having some option for paid support, where user can make a donation of X then they can secure a period of help from someone? maybe some of these people would be willing to put down 100$ if balbes can take 10 minutes to help with his issue -- of course going in SPECIFIC expectations for that would need to be set and limitations
<[TheBug]> made known up front
<[TheBug]> could them have a queue of guys who like those challanges that can pick them up as they can
<IgorPec> well, this could save some prbolems, but not all. We will only have a bit mor cash on disposal
<[TheBug]> again talking out my ass some but just brainstorming still
<[TheBug]> well if you have a bit more cash can that mean more full-time or actual part-time Armbian employees ? that was the other part of my thought... can get community to support through the beginning and then slowly build up a budget to have someone handle this in a larger capacity long term
<IgorPec> i think we would already be happy to make people understand this is not a professional service
<IgorPec> and whatever they are asking goes directly from our family accountg
<[TheBug]> okay time for my dirty habit.. gonna have a smoke and think this over more
<IgorPec> we could certainly go that way, but it has to be carefully planned
<[TheBug]> I intend to spend at least a few more hours on review and thinking on this, I will keep you involed as I have other questions / thoughts
<IgorPec> and more carefully executed :)
<[TheBug]> I agree
<IgorPec> have a smoke
<IgorPec> i'll have a sip :)
<[TheBug]> :)
<jock> IgorPec: I think you're right about the professional service, people should understand that community things are provided as-is with no guarantees of any sort. They should just say thank you and maybe ask politely, but they should not expect an answer
<IgorPec> some are very agressive - since they are frustrated
<IgorPec> and i also can't be polite - person is insulting me, demanding some expensive solution and 100% all this is my cost
<[TheBug]> jock: people who are in computers , programming and such will alread expect this, they are the ones who already will generally have correct expectation -- problem is the kids who are buying tv boxes are not always that same group of people -- thats the big device that is between SBC and TV Box to start with -- SBC is usually more professional users
<[TheBug]> s/device/devide
<ArmbianHelper> [TheBug] meant to say: jock: people who are in computers , programming and such will alread expect this, they are the ones who already will generally have correct expectation -- problem is the kids who are buying tv boxes are not always that same group of people -- thats the big devide that is between SBC and TV Box to start with -- SBC is usually more professional users
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<IgorPec> imagine we would let Rpi crowd gets here :))
<[TheBug]> please no....
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<[TheBug]> I mean I like RPi
<[TheBug]> I am not a hater
<[TheBug]> but no...
<IgorPec> yep, most of them have absolutely no relation to FOSS
<IgorPec> have very poor knowledge
<[TheBug]> lol is it bad that it sounds like we are grouping RPi users with the kids who want tv box support :D
<jock> IgorPec: I understand, but what happens if such kind of users are just ignored, or even suspended for some days when they are becoming too much aggressive?
<[TheBug]> though thats probably more true than anyone would admit..
<[TheBug]> jock: they are the ones who go on twitter and say Armbian sucks and they are assholes who banned me for asking a question
<[TheBug]> these kids and their cancel culture LOL
<IgorPec> it should be clear that support is not granted
<IgorPec> they are getting it too easy. way too eassy
<[TheBug]> jock: in my day job I work with adults who are even like that who are running million dollar businesses and think that way -- so not too hard for me to imagine the kids with tv boxes being that way
<jock> TheBug: well that's something I would not be afraid of... I mean that's just a frustrated kid that will go away sooner or later
<[TheBug]> good point
<Werner> We can add a large hint to the topic opening rules
<IgorPec> we should also tell that support is our common problem
<IgorPec> if something doesn't work is we
<IgorPec> and there are great people in this community that do soemthing that thing works better
<IgorPec> its normally that not everyone or normal user can hack kernel. that is not expected
<IgorPec> but if they don't know how - we can suffer because of their incompetence
<IgorPec> or trying to help them understand how things aew
<IgorPec> are
<IgorPec> without telling them to fu* off
<IgorPec> we don't want that
<[TheBug]> Werner: does the forum support warnings on users?
<IgorPec> but we should not allow them to eat us alive
<[TheBug]> as if maybe we could write a standard form that explains these things in more detail
<Werner> It does but never digged into that feature yet.
<[TheBug]> so if someone is getting abusive we can put them in time out and they will have a clear warning?
<[TheBug]> something that doesn't block their access but makes it apparent that their expectations needs adjusted if they intend to stay
<IgorPec> a rehab probram :)
<[TheBug]> then we could allow balbes to simply send warning to anyone he has issue with
<[TheBug]> or jock
<[TheBug]> or me
<[TheBug]> or any mod
<[TheBug]> etc
<IgorPec> or me
<IgorPec> :)
<jock> IgorPec: indeed. I think that the principle is armbian people are *offering* time and knowledge to the community in a spirit of sharing, cooperation and mutual grow, but community members that try to abuse should be held back even with some force when necessary
<[TheBug]> :)
<IgorPec> jock: yes, but how to do it right
<IgorPec> they should be aware what they are doing wrong
<IgorPec> in most cases they are not
<[TheBug]> if Werner says warning as a possibility and it can be setup in a way similar to what I mentioned I think that is one way to start
<[TheBug]> would give balbes a easy way to say "hey I want to help but it isn't gonna work this way' and he doesn't have to go argue with the user
<[TheBug]> likewise we could have moderators be a little more sensitive to that type of thing as well and maybe just send thema message with the same info if they think there is potential to be an issue
<[TheBug]> find friendly ways to say "Hey, this isn't tolerated here, but we still want to help and care about you as a human"
<IgorPec> rather impersonal communicating with banners
<[TheBug]> but someone has to earn that first
<[TheBug]> isn't like you just go beat them up for joining the forum
<IgorPec> "Putting a pressure is an offece" :)
<[TheBug]> they have to do something to earn that
<IgorPec> yes
<IgorPec> they have to do something for community first
<IgorPec> then ask questions
<IgorPec> a radical version
<jock> IgorPec: warning, supension and bans are always good tool with undisciplinate posters, but I think there should be some baseline guidelines for moderators. But I'm not the "forum expert", so this is just my personal opinion
<Werner> It is possible to create various reasons for warnings which have individual weight in points. Depending on its weight you can add actions like enforce content moderation, posting restriction or banning.
<[TheBug]> !!
<[TheBug]> would take some setting up I am sure
<[TheBug]> but at least sounds like there could be some good options there
<Werner> The setup is actually not that complicated. Most time spent is probably writing a proper text that explains everything
<[TheBug]> cool, maybe I could help you come up with some of that and we could work on putting that type of thin in place
<[TheBug]> ?
<Werner> sure thing
<[TheBug]> thing*
<[TheBug]> cool
<[TheBug]> feel like we are making some type of progress
<IgorPec> the basic problem is that people have no clue they are doing something wrong
<[TheBug]> even if its only the start
<IgorPec> they feel they are "customers with right to demand fixes"
<[TheBug]> well then this warning system will help to break them of that thought process
<IgorPec> majority is aware about the nature, but just too many not
<[TheBug]> its a privilege not a right
<IgorPec> yes, but this relationship is not clear to them
<[TheBug]> why Werner and I need to com up with som good warning verbage that makes this clear in a nice way
<IgorPec> ok
<[TheBug]> maybe it would be worth noting during sign-up that participation here is a privilege and not a right as well -- then you won't even have to fight that point
<[TheBug]> but yes, a well formatted warning may be good enough and a warning is not a ban
<IgorPec> whatever the message will be, it has to be on multiple places
<IgorPec> limit the pressure down and punish those little that doesn't play by any rules
<[TheBug]> I participate on a bunch of forums where they are point based, you get too many warnings the system bans you -- you learn -- don't act like a jack ass
<IgorPec> now the % of those needed punishment would be too big
<[TheBug]> well just to reenforce my point, I am talking warnings not a ban
<[TheBug]> so what would happen is user would see points added or however we determine and they would get a message from the system
<IgorPec> :)
<[TheBug]> warning them that they may have breached on of our rules and here is what our expectations are
<IgorPec> which was complaining about bogus deletion and then deleted his own content at the end
<[TheBug]> lol
<[TheBug]> crazy people
<[TheBug]> can't work with them, can't live without them
<IgorPec> yes, but i guess a small % will never read anything
<IgorPec> or obey
<Werner> Oh well I could live without scumbags :P
<[TheBug]> and then they get banned and life moves on
<IgorPec> yeah, for those - ban
<Werner> "You have been issued a warning. Before you can post again, you must acknowledge the warning. "
<IgorPec> i just don't want to loose normal frustrated people expecting too much
<[TheBug]> believe me I know your feeling -- you want to help everyone and not alientate people -- however, with how big Armbian is getting, there will need to be some changes maybe to that outlook in some ways --
<IgorPec> they need to be shaped before asking for support
<IgorPec> yeas, 1st we need to talk about. and we do
<[TheBug]> Any logical intelligent adult won't be offended by that stuff or will just move on
<[TheBug]> its kids usually that generate the most push back and its cause they don't want to listen
<[TheBug]> those people can go in time out
<IgorPec> there is also a way to divide forums a bit more
<IgorPec> general public area and membership
<Werner> where is the difference? donation?
<[TheBug]> I believe information should be free, but access to information is a privilege, not a right and if they need to be told that, so be it -- anyone who rages quits from commonsense rule enforcement wasn't going to be a worthwhile contribtion to begin with
<IgorPec> or making something good
<IgorPec> better just that
<Werner> Yes. because people who donate could "demand" support
<IgorPec> this means - extending probation areas to only one forum
<[TheBug]> I wouldn't be against the tv box club being membership driven and the users having to agree to a ToS that explains our expectations for that
<[TheBug]> but again that would take more reorganization
<[TheBug]> I think thats more something for the future
<IgorPec> divide forum into 3 areas - novice, intermediet, advanced
<[TheBug]> in the short term just need an easy way to let users know when they are not behaving as they should
<Werner> [TheBug], are you at the forums atm?
<[TheBug]> yes, I am TheLinuxBug on forums
<Werner> Just sent you a warning for demonstration
<[TheBug]> k
<Werner> nice
<[TheBug]> honestly
<[TheBug]> that seems perfect
<[TheBug]> replace the lorem ipsum with real content
<Werner> of course
<[TheBug]> and that would get the point across for sure
<IgorPec> ok, for penalty
<IgorPec> new the education part, that this will not be used
<Werner> I just put 3 days posting restriction for testing
<jock> is it possible to hide the moderator who issues the warning?
<IgorPec> unless really no other chouice
<[TheBug]> bbiaf
<Werner> jock, by editing the language string possible, yes
<Werner> [TheBug], undo and cleared your profile
<IgorPec> also can he be automatically moved to validating group?
<Werner> No, changing group on warning is not possible but you can enforce content moderation for a specific period of time
<IgorPec> there he can buy out for his mistake
<IgorPec> or wait
<jock> I would consider to not show the moderator name to not create more anger in the users: often they think the moderator is against them for some reason, but if they don't know who is the moderator they can't get angry with someone specific...
<Werner> Would not work out very well anyways since there are automatic promitions active to put users from validating into members
<Werner> jock, or they simply assume that XY issued the warning because XY ansered in the same topic
<Werner> s/ansered/answered
<ArmbianHelper> Werner meant to say: jock, or they simply assume that XY issued the warning because XY answered in the same topic
<IgorPec> we could in fact anonymize those actions
<IgorPec> perhaps there is a plugin?
<jock> Werner: they can suppose that, but not being sure
<IgorPec> or we just remove this text from template
<Werner> IgorPec, no need, just edit the matching language string
<IgorPec> ok
<Werner> already done for english
<Werner> [TheBug], did you receive an email with the warning?
<jock> Werner: you can warn me if you need to test the thing
<Werner> I have a dummy account setup already :)
<jock> ah ok, that's better :)
<jock> gtg, see you later!
<Werner> later
<IgorPec> leter
<[TheBug]> I will check, sorry was in bathroom -- 1 sec
<[TheBug]> Werner: Yes - http://prntscr.com/v62zs5
<Werner> Hm okay. Maybe this can be disabled
<[TheBug]> IgorPec: I think the message should be friendly that is sent, not mean -- the idea is to set the expectation of the user -- Hey Friend! Unfrotunately you are being warned because we want you to better understand the rules and culture of this forum...
<[TheBug]> etc
<[TheBug]> so a warning shouldn't be a rage thing, it should be like, Hey -- we see you there, we know theres something going on but if you want out help, please follow by our guidelines..
<[TheBug]> s/out/our
<ArmbianHelper> [TheBug] meant to say: so a warning shouldn't be a rage thing, it should be like, Hey -- we see you there, we know theres something going on but if you want our help, please follow by our guidelines..
<IgorPec> bug: agree, this is on you, native speakers
<IgorPec> or we ask balbes ? :)
<[TheBug]> hehee
<[TheBug]> he can write the Russian version and we can put it under ;p
<[TheBug]> lol
<[TheBug]> Werner: I will work on a message for that warning here this evening and give you a couple versions maybe and get your input and come to a conclusion there?
<Werner> Take your time. no hurries
<[TheBug]> IgorPec: I am gonna try to reach out to balbes and give him some information on the warnings as we have that in place and will also see if I can get some differnt input from him on ways to move forward
<[TheBug]> jock: will keep bugging you when I see y ou around and maybe we can spitball more and come up with some plans to take over the world..
<[TheBug]> lol
<[TheBug]> Anyways, need to do some house chores here, and I will work on that message later and meditate some on it further
<IgorPec> he might not be reachable for a while
<[TheBug]> Okay, well I won't expect any ugrency in his reply
<[TheBug]> but I will at least reach out
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<wooster> anyone seen this? scripts/dtc/dtc-parser.tab.o:(.bss+0x10): multiple definition of `yylloc'; scripts/dtc/dtc-lexer.lex.o:(.bss+0x0): first defined here
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<wooster> just upgraded to ubuntu 20.10
<IgorPec> after upgrade i assume?
<wooster> i believe yes
<wooster> rm'd cache/ dir
<IgorPec> you mean you build on ubuntu 20.10 ?
<wooster> right, same legacy kernel
<IgorPec> use docker
<IgorPec> nobody will spent a second dealing with ubuntu 20.10 probleml
<wooster> ok!
<nekomancer[m]> mirror sync broken?
<IgorPec> no, Mirror sync in progress?
<IgorPec> but its probably a room for improvement
<nekomancer[m]> Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:40:58 +0000
<IgorPec> each time indexes are not identical, this is poped out
<nekomancer[m]> 25 oct now. seems too long for "still in progress"
<IgorPec> perhaps we don't have proper synch method? dunno
<nekomancer[m]> possible info about time just wrong, and it's not a date of last modification need to sync?
<IgorPec> don't know but i also have seen this, then after few days its gone
<nekomancer[m]> I remember some days ago similar error occurs and somebody there talk about hanged sync
<IgorPec> now i am trying to limit redirector to main repository for a day or two, but that slows things down
<IgorPec> hanged sync, possible, but where?
<IgorPec> imola.armbian is the primary source
<nekomancer[m]> oops
<IgorPec> but from your update perspective you don't know that
<IgorPec> you get what redirector gives you
<nekomancer[m]> can I get links what redirector gives me in logs?
<IgorPec> when you ran apt update you see which mirrors are choosen
<IgorPec> so yes
<IgorPec> or just by typing apt.armbian.com into the browser / curl
<IgorPec> curl apt.armbian.com
<IgorPec> we are at minimum set of mirrors now
<IgorPec> nope, sorry, it seems full selection
<nekomancer[m]> curl works
<IgorPec> yeah, but update mechanism i don't know for sure
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<nekomancer[m]> Err:98 https://mirrors.dotsrc.org/armbian-apt buster/main armhf Packages
<lanefu> nekomancer[m]: sorry you're having problems, I'm going to work on some new features for the redirect
<nekomancer[m]> emm... too official for me...
<lanefu> Sorry I'm a consultant. Sometimes stuff like that comes out of my mouth lol
<nekomancer[m]> :)
<ArmbianTwitter> @armbian (armbian): @sahajsarup 2 x Scythe max - probably the only monster cooler for this dual CPU setup :) https://t.co/jIgRK33bcd (3s ago)
<IgorPec> we have to come out with some better repo update strategy
<IgorPec> i am no sure why is this happenig
<ArmbianTwitter> @sahajsarup (Sahaj Sarup @ home): @armbian Whats the besst it's cooling? (4s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter> @sahajsarup (Sahaj Sarup @ home): @armbian * beast (21s ago)
<jock> [TheBug]: sure thing, no problem, bug me whenever you want :)
<ArmbianTwitter> @armbian (armbian): @sahajsarup Dual xeon 2683 28 cores. Not anymore a beast under todays standard :) retirement soon. (25s ago)
<lanefu> IgorPec: yeah I'm not sure what's best
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<lanefu> I do plan on adding and endpoint to show active mirrors, and some sort of regional endpoint.
<jock> Gentlemen, that's late evening here so I'm going to bed. See you soon
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<rneese> well i should have gotten 15 and not 10
<rneese> 2 chips short
<nekomancer[m]> I got more than 2K errors like `cp: cannot create hard link '/tmp/tmp.urSMJRJ8kf/armbian-firmware-full/lib/firmware/radeon/SUMO_rlc.bin' to '/home/user/armbian/cache/sources/linux-firmware-git/radeon/SUMO_rlc.bin': Invalid cross-device link`
<nekomancer[m]> sure, it was a strange idea to hardlink in-memory /tmp and /home
<nekomancer[m]> `compilation.sh:494`
<nekomancer[m]> #cp : create hardlinks
<nekomancer[m]> cp -alf "${SRC}"/cache/sources/armbian-firmware-git/* "${firmwaretempdir}/${plugin_dir}/lib/firmware/"
<nekomancer[m]> can I replace `-l` to `--reflink=auto`?
<nekomancer[m]> or set `firmwaretempdir=$(mktemp -d)` to place inside ${SRC}. To be sure it is one filesystem.
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<nekomancer[m]> something like `firmwaretempdir=$(mktemp -d -p "${SRC}"/cache/tmp)`
<nekomancer[m]> what will be better?
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<archetech> derp
<rneese> wow lxqt is nice
<rneese> and it works
<rneese> now I have to test kde/kde-plasma
<rneese> once I know how they work I can start some new work